The Importance Of Inspection>

[sirsparkabit]

Hi Peeps,

Just returned from a job extending and altering some old circuits and first fixing some new ones for a loft conversion.

The older circuits had been completely tested after some works a year ago and test results were good and cert issued by another spark (nic).

I needed to move a rose to convert for some downlights , before isolating the circuit, Switch off ,i tried to unscrew the rose cover.

Stuck fast covered with years of old wallpaper ect, light flashing on and off like crazy?.

Isolate circuit and open rose to find all the terminals totally carboned to the point of near dust, a fire waiting to happen.

The obvious conclusion i reached was that the previous spark had found this stuck and just went to the last rose in line to get his Zs ect.

My Advise for what it is worth---Don't cheat check all fittings on any circuit you alter or install you just might save someones life and property.

Your thoughts?

Cheers SSAB.

 

[a1]

Indeed so SSAB. :|

 

[davetheglitz]

Can see where you're coming from - but have some sympathy for the inspecting spark. If the Zs and insulation on the last fitting is OK why should you remove other fittings.

Should you remove all fittings on the circuit you are working on? What if it's all LV lights/GU 10s and chandeliers in a property? Just by taking the fitting apart to do the measurement you are compromising what is being measured (i.e. have you introduced faults on re-assembly).

Appreciate what you have found - but apart from a cautionary tale I don't see how you can apply this in all situations.

 

[sirsparkabit]

Can see where you're coming from - but have some sympathy for the inspecting spark. If the Zs and insulation on the last fitting is OK why should you remove other fittings. Should you remove all fittings on the circuit you are working on? What if it's all LV lights/GU 10s and chandeliers in a property? Just by taking the fitting apart to do the measurement you are compromising what is being measured (i.e. have you introduced faults on re-assembly).

Appreciate what you have found - but apart from a cautionary tale I don't see how you can apply this in all situations.

See what you mean dave, in this example i am merely pointing out that unscrewing a rose cover (not dismantling) Inspecting connections as a minimum would of exposed this problem without testing.

We all know that we have exceptions in the testing procedure , i.e equipment vunerable to testing ect.

In this case where the spark had altered this circuit (not a pir with agreed limitations) i have no sympathy for him if he could not open a rose to expose the danger lurking within.

This was not intended to apply in all situations as you suggest,but merely posted as a thought for the up and coming sparks who use this forum for knowledge, advice and learning from others mistakes ect.

Cheers SSAB.

 

[betty swollocks]

sorry can see your point but have to disagree, if i was changing a light fitting (or changing a center light for d/l's in a room) i would test light and db in question and if results for polarity, continuity and cpc impedence where fine i wouldnt dream of thinking, 'oh i'd better check a few other fittings just in case'

if said fitting was in a poor state of repair i would, but then i think everybody else would too.

in my experience taking down old ceiling roses unnecessarily is asking for those fittings to crumble in your hand the minute you twist them free and because lifes like that, old roses are a different size to new ones which means changing that whole fitting, where does it end?.

not meaning to criticize your post, just offering my insight

 

[sirsparkabit]

sorry can see your point but have to disagree, if i was changing a light fitting (or changing a center light for d/l's in a room) i would test light and db in question and if results for polarity, continuity and cpc impedence where fine i wouldnt dream of thinking, 'oh i'd better check a few other fittings just in case' if said fitting was in a poor state of repair i would, but then i think everybody else would too.

in my experience taking down old ceiling roses unnecessarily is asking for those fittings to crumble in your hand the minute you twist them free and because lifes like that, old roses are a different size to new ones which means changing that whole fitting, where does it end?.

not meaning to criticize your post, just offering my insight

See what you mean betty but if they are that old they crumble when you unscrew the cover i would think that perhaps they have come to the end of their serviceable life.

You guys do it how you want but if i alter an old circuit and have to cert it a little look here and there for my peace of mind and the testing is what i shall continue to do.

Being sued once will seriously damage your wealth ,health and relationships.

Lets face it in law terms we are getting that sueing culture here big time,beware is all i say.

Another point to this is the client was watching when this occurred,his immediate comment was i won't use that guy again (reputation gone in an instant.

Its worth considering,don't you think:O:O

 

[Andy™]

See what you mean betty but if they are that old they crumble when you unscrew the cover i would think that perhaps they have come to the end of their serviceable life.

but dont forget that if it does break when you touch it, 'it was fine until then' so customer will expect you to replace it

 

[sirsparkabit]

but dont forget that if it does break when you touch it, 'it was fine until then' so customer will expect you to replace it

I do not have a problem explaining to my clients that if fittings ect are old or U/S they need replacing (at their expense)

A lot of it is how you approach each different situation.

Good Luck SSAB.

 

[Andy™]

I do not have a problem explaining to my clients that if fittings ect are old or U/S they need replacing (at their expense)A lot of it is how you approach each different situation.

Good Luck SSAB.

if it looks like itll break, id warn them, but it does happen where they still complain

 

[KR Sol]

Hi all,

Just thought I would hopefully put my penny in for both sides of the story.

sirsparkabit has gone in and done a very thorough job, which in this day in age is sometime a rare thing, don't think we should knock that with some of the horror stories we see and hear about Applaud Smiley.

Now this where if I may ask a few questions.

1. if the previous spark who did the inspection had noted on cert's unable to gain access to said ceiling rose due to a.b.c. explaining on cert and to customer risk of failure to rose, decorating damage etc and customer had said don't do because of said problems then spark would have covered his behind, as it does state that the customer does have final say if a said circuit is to be tested or not (more common in industrial due to circuit not being able to be isolated) This although is a feeble excuse but that is a get out of jail free card. but i presume no such comments on report.

2. the test cert if the ceiling rose is in such a bad way, then i would question why the tests. Continuity, insulation resistance, and zs never threw up a reading or two that would indicate a possible or potential failing, at the end of the day that is why we inspect and test.

my feeling is that the previous test was not performed correctly, that is my feeling or it could be just the chinese i had last night

Again I don't think we should knock sirsparkabit for being so thorough if that is how he wants to inspect then he knows he has covered all the bases and how he wants to instruct others in doing the tests is fine with me Applaud Smiley. although I must admit when I did my 2391 we were instructed on lighting circuits to go to end of line for all testing (if practical and safe), if the circuit has a number of lamps running of that circuit (corridor etc) then it may be prudent to inspect a couple more fittings aswell.

 

[davetheglitz]

Thanks KR - nice sum up.

I'm reminded of a time when I was called out for an intermittant RCD tripping fault at a 1920's wooden bungalow. Insulation OK - perhaps a bit on the low side but not enough to trip - did a few random checks on likely candidates including checking for leaks and rats in the loft - but had to advise them to call back if it happens again. A few months later it wasn't intermittant - so was able to isolate the fault to a lighting circuit - but once again insulation within limits - admitedly low. Eventually traced the fault by disconnecting branches of the radial and seeing if the trip went. Eventully found a junction box that was absolutely burnt inside - in a real bad way!! Sounds similar to Sir's ceiling rose!

However thorough, we are we can all miss things. It is quite possible that the previous inspection was done properly according to 2391. You would expect your meter to show up if there were problems - but from my experience above this is not necessarily the case.

Just an aside - I only note what fittings I do a test on in a PIR - not those that I don't. More for repeatability than anything. If the duff ceiling rose was not the end of the circuit why would you need to touch it?

No answers here - but I feel sorry for the previous electrician if he had done things by the book and has lost his reputation through no fault of his own.

 

[batty]

My thoughts are when doing Pir's you should be checking each fitting. You would do a loop test at each socket surely. How are you to know which is the last fitting if you don't take roses down anyway if rose was in that bad a condition I would check it anyway.

Batty

 

[sirsparkabit]

Thanks all i think we have had a good discussion on this , with many valid points being raised.

As a ending point as far as my posting's,

This on both occasions was spark one and me both altering this circuit

So as far as i am concerned pir conditions were never in question hence a more thorough inspection was carried out by myself.

For those who feel sorry for the other spark (i am not without sympathy myself for fellow tradespersons) but i think he at the time had the same opportunity to do a thorough inspection and test as i did.

I know as do you guys that with the best will in the world things can go wrong,things may get missed. However i believe it is the nature of our trade to try and prevent these things to the best of our abilitys.

When i leave a job i often wonder who will be the next spark to do any work on that installation and try to leave behind me something they would comment on such as "the last spark did a good job" as opposed to who the hell did this!!.

Thanks to you all SSAB.