Third Party certifying ?

[Evans Electric]

Have other scheme members received anything from their schemes about "Third Party Certifying "     .  In other words ,   inspecting & certing jobs  carried out by other sparks.

I've noticed a few references to this lately .....would this involve a different certificate pad  I wonder .....containing lots of cop out responsibility clauses perhaps .

At one stage some main schemes were welcoming  the subject like a phart in a spacesuit .  

 

[Murdoch]

I'm with Stroma and it can be included in my scope...... But why would I want to test some body else's work? 

Not for me....

 

[Sidewinder]

It's not allowed under Part P around here AFAIK.

 

[M107]

Stroma & Napit allow 3rd party sign off...........I'm with Murdoch though, why sign off other work? unless your charging the same as LBC > £200   :innocent

 

[Tony S]

I’ve never had anything to do with certifying work so I speak as a bystander. I can not see how this can possibly work while at the same time retaining any of the supposed integrity in the sign off procedure.

To be honest the Americans have a good system with the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). Their inspectors sign off any notifiable work..

 

[Evans Electric]

I wondered how common it is , having seen a couple of references to it recently .

I've done a few PIRs in the past , sanctioned by LBC  , where they need to sign off a job where the builders used a non scheme sparks . Couple of them told the builder they were registered , got paid , promised cert but moved on .    I made sure they understood it would be a PIR .

The city electrical dept phoned me about the one . I'd reported a manky , loose fitting copper clip on the DNO cable sheath , I'd tightened it , got a decent reading but gave it a C2 .  

"What are you doing about this earth connection "?

"Well  nothing ...I'm the inspector , customer is only paying for the report "

The usual passing the buck ...not willing to get it sorted themselves , get muggins to start running round for sweet FA .

Told him it was actuallly the main contractor's problem as he was paid for the electrical install abeit using his contractor .

 

[Manator]

I think it is a way of the scheme providers to generate more revenue. I personally and the company I work for would not do any third party certification.

I have in the past been called upon by the LBC to test a suspect install, however I have only ever issued a PIR, or as now an EICR. Most if not all failed, but that is another story.

 

[Lurch]

I had it added to the scope when I first registered with Stroma. It was no extra so it didn't hurt, I just ticked every box that might apply. I only used it once, had someone else do all the cable pulling and cutting boxes in and they second fixed the sockets, so I had them sign the design and install. But that was for someone I knew, I wouldn't test any other random jobs unless it was for the council directly to test other non-registered notifiable jobs.

 

[pewter]

there should be a method to sign off others work,

for example.......

-if the job was almost completed and then the electrician died , was injured and unable to complete/test for the certificate.

-a disagreement between the electrician and customer.

-the electrical firm went bankrupt.

If one of those things happened there needs to be a method to get it signed off for the part-P

 

[steptoe]

I had a call to look at a job, spoke to the guy for about an hour, then he said he had already for a spark, but could I sign it off, he'd treat me to a nice bottle, he was a bit more than taken abaxk when u said no problem, but I'll actually be about £450 as I need to see cables installed, then second fixed, then test, he didn't get back to me,

Until,

I sent him a bill for £65 consultancy fees, he went mad, 

I gave him the choice of paying or I could notify BC for him for the work he carried out, I still will tbh once the extension is finished.

 

[binky]

had a similar event on a set of soalr panels, he wanted to install himself and got rather abusive when I said he could get lost cos I wouldn't want to be legally responsible for the next upteen years. I notifed DNO, for the fun of it, and laughed my socks off when a gale ripped his shed and solar system apart :slap

 

[Ray G]

Ive had a few calls in the past asking for certification of work they have done and always refuse or tell them a PIR is all that I offer , one accepted this and when I got there it was for an extension to the property , after a discussion he then told me he wanted an Installation Cert , which I refused and looking at the installation told him it was unsafe anyway , he refused to pay for my time after having travelled 5 miles, I reported the whole episode to the LABC anyway , I hope he got his just rewards .....

 

[phil d]

there's a lad near me set himself up as a builder, proper bodge merchant, anyway I knew him through my son and one day he came to see me about a job he'd done (pre part P days) anyway he'd converted part of this garage into a sort of flat for this customer so her eldest son could have his own space. The whole thing was a lash up, it came to paying and the customer wanted a cert for the wiring, so he got me to go round, trying the old pals act. It was horrendous, a 2.5 swa from a 32A mcb in the CU, no glands, through a hole drilled in a window frame, clipped along a fence into a battered old proteous 2 way hanging from a nail in the garage bit. The cables were slung over the rafters, and went down the walls at 45 degrees to the sockets, needless to say there were no grommets or earth sleeving. The loop for the lights was done with bits of terminal block, not even taped! I walked away laughing and shaking my head, then the guy gets all arsey because I won't do him a ticket.   

 

[M107]

I had one Jan / Feb this year very local to me.

Called by the customer for "need the wiring checking & signing off" I did explain that I would do an EICR & he should check that LBC would be happy with this as I will not sign off 3rd party work.

Once there it becomes obvious the whole place is a diy disaster with.........

3 cu's in garden outbuildings

1 cu in garden on a pole for "future hot tub"

1 cu in garage

2 cu's in the house

When questioned over a brew about why the kitchen lights are wired in 2.5mm² and on a 16amp mcb the customer comes clean......it was a mate of a mate who works on the railway as a sparks who did the job, but cant test or do certificates, hence the best option was to get somebody in to sign it off (yep he still thought he was going to get part P sign off).

Some of the many issues:

• TT with 4mm² mec over a 8 meter run from house to rod buried in a flowerbed with no protection.
  
• Class1 light fittings lacking cpc connection (it was there just cut back & not used at any fittings)
  
• All submains had individual 80a 30mA rcd protection, but sadly lacked any over current protection.
  
• No swa glanding anywhere.
  
• Outbuilding with a shower has a cu next to the cubicle.
  
• Hot tub submain in 10mm² straight from Henley's at meter.
  
• Brick built office down lights installed so the joists have been cut in to showing signs of scorching. 
  
• (My personal favourite) kitchen & utillity ringmain split across two mcb's.............in differing cu's.
  

He wasn't overly impressed at the list of non-compliance items the quote for remedial works or the report stating how poor the workmanship is across the whole installation.................needless to say I've not been called back. One of those jobs where your not fussed about loosing if I'm honest, would end up being one of those "I will buy the materials you just provide labour".

 

[Andy™]

• (My personal favourite) kitchen & utillity ringmain split across two mcb's.............in differing cu's.
  

:slap  

seen many rings with each end in a different MCB but never a different board

 who works on the railway as a sparks who did the job,

anyone we know?

 

[M107]

anyone we know?

:C ...........but it's only a short trip up the road  :innocent

 

[Tony S]

• My personal favourite) kitchen & utillity ringmain split across two mcb's.............in differing cu's.
  

Have you never come across an open ring? The DNO’s use them all the time.

 

[Sidewinder]

Have you never come across an open ring? The DNO’s use them all the time.

As may be, but they don't have to comply with BS7671!

The DNO's need to keep power on, so they synchronise and feed from both ends...

Their kit, their rules!

 

[Tony S]

I was being a little bit facetious

 

[Evans Electric]

seen many rings with each end in a different MCB but never a different board

I have , just the once  Andy.   I probably posted this about 30 yrs ago but its worth telling ....I think , under  " Different characters we come across"  

Way back in time to adding a new ITU  to a Neurosurgery centre  , all in pyro , about 10 sparks on the job .

A new guy started on the firm .... as 2nd fix started .  I put him on connecting a couple of boards .   The set up was in a service cupboard ..load of pyro's all made off into trunking ....two single phase boards we had clearly marked with a red strip and a blue strip ..... red board was normal circuits  , blue board had emergency  generator supply .      Pyros were marked with Red or Blue tape , they were already marked  L & N  and circuit name / number .  What could go wrong ? 

The best bit was the two legs of a ring main , say corridors and Admin were marked R1 ...so , Red board / MCB 1 / 30A ?

No ..... one leg in Red board  , MCB3...15A    the other leg in Blue board , MCB 8 , 40A  . :C

And so it went on ...I don't think any cable was correct ..... but you'd think  at least get all the Red cables into the Red board  . They put up with him for a few weeks , pulling in SWA's with other guys  then got rid of him .... he left his tool kit , when we saw  it's contents we should have realised he was no Sparks .  ( I recall one gaffer would ask to see a guy's tool kit if he came or a job)