Threads That I Dare Not Answer Honestly For Fear Of Being "not" Friendly!

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

So I don't get accused of being unfriendly to someone asking what in my personal opinion is so basic that it should not be asked....

I will put my comments in my own thread here....

Anyone not interested in simple truthful honesty can choose to ignore this thread...

Of course the Mod's Admin's et-al can delete or close this thread if they so wish.... 

But anyone else of like mind who wishes to discuss apparent inadequacies of basic electrical knowledge, training, experience etc...

from those who profess to be "electricians" and charge customer for their time and expertise feel free to add or contribute to my thread here..

*** REMEMBER ***

There IS a distinct difference between a DIY bod who has got out of their depth and a bit stuck...

To someone charging customers for their electrical abilities and knowledge !

Exhibit #1..

http://talk.electricianforum.co.uk/topic/23331-install-new-db-for-garden-lights-and-garage/#entry320549

Doesn't anyone actually learn basic circuit design on Short courses nower days?????????

Few garden lights and a bit of shed power for someone qualified and passed some courses....

should be a few calcs over a mug of tea and a bacon sarnie....?? 

4 circuits for 4 LED lights...  6mm?? 

Gosh!!!!!!!

:C

:coat

 

[Evans Electric]

Oooops   sometimes I don't know if I'm in the Co-op or the Home & Colonial :innocent :C

 

[kme]

S` (almost) funny........

Although a certified horseman, of the horsemen tribal group; I too avoid certain threads - not because I fear a ban, but because my replies wouldn`t set a good example.

Those who are pursuing our trade as a career need to have a certain amount of knowledge- yet, all too often, they don`t!!!

Ditto to SL - DIY bob is one thing, but if you`re charging for your work, and don`t know the  basics...........you MUST be commiting fraud

 

[Robin Spark]

Strange,  I thought exhibit 1 would have been about thermostats!

 

[Steve3948]

Yes FRAUD, but this country is great for anyone wanting to commit it, that's why so many are at it.

Any other country would not.

 

[ProDave]

Interesting thread.

I think the "solution" is to encourage people to ask the question in the right sub forum AND be honest about their level of experience.

There's nothing wrong with a very basic question being asked in the DIY or student sections. They are either people with little or no knowledge (DIY) or those in the process of training (student) so can't be expected to know anything.

The problems come when someone posts a really simple question in the main electricians section. Particularly when it starts "I'm doing a job for a customer and....."

So what do we do?

Answer the question politely and ignore the fact that trading as an electrician when not competent may be fraud and may be putting people's lives in danger?

Or do we tell them frankly to call in a competent, qualified electrician?

Perhaps some guidance from the moderators is needed? It's their forum (as in they own it) so how would they like to see this situation handled?  After all it can look bad if someone asking a basic question gets abuse because we don't believe what he's doing is safe.

Of course whatever reply we make should always be polite and based on facts.

 

[sprocketflup]

Hmm tricky one this, there are folks on this forum that I am positively in awe of due to their depth of knowledge and understanding, I really do look up to them, Specs you are one of them, your intimate knowledge of the regs book never ceases to amaze me.

So in your opinion, at what point in their training IS/WOULD a learner be allowed out into the big wide world unmuzzled? How do you define it?

Im doing a part time evening course at college at the moment, its a small class with just five students, all of whom have come to the course off their own backs and with various levels of experience i.e. no fresh faced school leavers.

The differences in just us five is amazing. Theres one guy who really knows his onions when it comes to domestic, one who has spent his entire working life doing maintenance in a factory so is well knowledgable about that, but didn't have a clue when asked what the minimum ZE should be for a TNCS. Another guy does nowt but fire alarms and has a HNC in electro...something or other but again would struggle when faced with a 3 pin plug.

Another guy has done high voltage work for Western Power but again very little domestic etc

And then theres me. Lets not even go there

The poor lecturer has visibly aged since we started the course :slap

Thing is we all go out to work every day, unsupervised. I haven't killed anyone yet, but Im sure ive made mistakes, and learnt from them. Sometime ill be doing a job, and just want to run it past a more experienced head, luckily I have quite a few numbers for people whose electrical opinion I respect and can ring for a chat, if I didn't Id post my questions on here, like a lot of folk do

 

[ProDave]

When I did my training (apprenticeship) I wasn't allowed to work unsupervised until the day I actually completed my time. I recall in the last few weeks my mentor saying how daft it was but as he summed it up "Today you are a boy. Tomorrow you are a man"

The other thing that astounds me is why would someone want to be an electrician, if they find the concept of electrical circuits and current flow so confusing.  It's all very well knowing the regs and passing a course, but if you simply find the concept of electrical flow around a circuit baffling, then perhaps you have chosen the wrong career?  I chose electrics for my career as from a very young age I was making things with batteries, bulbs and switches and it all made perfect sense how it worked.  I chose not to be a brain surgeon (just by way of example)  because I know I would never have been any good at that.

 

[m4tty]

I can see this one from both sides and stay out of it tbh. I've typed question posts out and then deleted them in fear of being mugged off so asked other electricians and have been taught wrong.

There will always be chancers in every walk of life and fraudsters but everyone has to start somewhere so its better leading them to the correct answer than them leaving dangerous wiring and killing someone innocent.

At least he's asking questions rather than just wiring and firing and not caring at all, and there's loads who don't give a f

This whole country is going downhill fast not just sparkin'

 

[SBS Dave]

Now, there's an interesting development.

Electrics-New was asking about a possible use of RCBOs and a possible DB change, with possible vertical mounting.

His topic had been locked, because as I now know, he had unearthed an illegal post from a previous TEF Sponsor.

I therefore sent him a PM and also asked a Moderator why the post had been locked. The reason was as above. My PM has now apparently appeared on the open Forum, a development which I am completely happy about.

As Sponsor SBS Trade Sales, I am obviously interested in taking on board another TEF customer, as the content of my post shows.

I have openly declared that I sell only to the Trade, but in the case of TEF, I have assumed others have vetted the Members, so I would be happy to sell to him.

As TEF Member David Stansfield MIET, I do have my views on the various levels of qualifications and competence of electricians, bearing in mind I used to assess 250 of them for competence to join a Registration Body. As a general rule, the time-served qualified "old-timers" like me, do have a depth of knowledge and experience that earns them the right to be called "electricians". Some, however are still 7/029 men, who just can't get to grips with Inspection & Testing.

As a general rule, the new guys (not always young guys), lack the experience needed to deal with the less straightforward jobs, hence one of the reasons for the TEF Forum. However, some of the new guys don't know about 7/029, 15A plugs and pre-Wylex 3036 boards, but they do know about modern methods of fault and shock protection. The hope is and surely the aim of TEF is,  to get all members, new or old, singing off the same sheet of music.

Hi m4tty,

I was half way through my post when you did your post, so I didn't see it.

I believe we are more or less in agreement.

Member Dave

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

The other thing that astounds me is why would someone want to be an electrician, if they find the concept of electrical circuits and current flow so confusing.  It's all very well knowing the regs and passing a course, but if you simply find the concept of electrical flow around a circuit baffling, then perhaps you have chosen the wrong career?  I chose electrics for my career as from a very young age I was making things with batteries, bulbs and switches and it all made perfect sense how it worked.  I chose not to be a brain surgeon (just by way of example)  because I know I would never have been any good at that.

This is the root of the problem....

billly the baker, or alan the accountant, or pete the postman, or clive the carpenter (add other names as appropriate)...

decides..  I know how to wire a 3 pin plug and I put those new lights up in the lounge myself...

I will do a quick course the start my own electrical trade....

But they were crap at science at school and can barely do any maths.....

The fundamental basic understanding of electrical science should be grasped to a greater degree than any understanding of the regs IMHO....

regs are open to interpretation...  (and are often debated on the forum as to the best method to achieve compliance...)

BUT...

the laws of physics and electrical flow haven't changed no mater how the regs change.....

So how can anyone who has done an electrical training course of some description be unable to calculate...

I need to get power to a load..

How big is the load...

How much current will it draw...

What size of protective device will be needed (inc any startup surges)

What size cables can carry these loads....

Are there any volt drop issues....

Any special earthing arangments...

Identify if something is exposed extraneous or double insulated.....

etc..

etc..

etc..

************************************************************************************

and lets be honest here most of these questions relate to DOMESTIC loads.....

Hardly any major complex calculations IMHO!

*************************************************************************************

There is an increasing number of people who do an alleged course and come away with no understanding of how to calculate anything...

they just keep using pre-set standard installations that they did on a 6x6 wall board for a practical exam! 

so...

ALL sockets MUST be 2.5mm 32A ring......  erm.. nope!

ALL lights MUST be 1.0mm 6A loop at rose.... erm nope!

ALL cookers MUST be 6.0mm 32A with 1x cooker switch per cooker... erm nope!

ALL showers MUST be 10.0mm 40A with plastic supply pipes cross bonded... erm nope!

ALL down lights MUST be firerated... erm nope!

etc..

etc..

Or we get questions like......

I am wiring a shed with a 2way RCD protected DB,

I am putting the sockets onto a 32A ring lights on a 6A radial... 

The whole lot is coming off the 20A RCD protected conservatory circuit...

There are 2x Double sockets 1x bulkhead and 1 x external floodlight over the door... 

I plan on using 4.0mm 3core SWA for the 4m from the house to the shed... 

Have I missed anything??

Answer..  YES: Design, Calcs, Common sense and Value for money for the customer!!!!!!

Sorry but that is a DIY level of question... 

NOT the type you expect from a charging, "qualified" electrician....

Understanding the regs IS important...

BUT if you cannot grasp basic science and calculations for loads and cable sizes... 

and you have got to leave site to ask on the internet if a 4.0mm cable is big enough for the greenhouse heater...

How can you be competent to work safely identifying issues as they arise that need resolving and prevent danger and injury to yourself and others...

And how can you possibly know if your test results are acceptable???

IMHO these are the basic legal obligations of competence to work alone as required by EAWR 1989 reg 16  & H&S if you are doing paid work for customers!

say a 6.0mm cooker circuit has a R1+R2 of 0.9 and a Zs of 1.12ohms..

It may appear all good for a 32A type B....

But if the circuit is only 6m long your reading imply its 85+m long..

could be dodgy joint somewhere...?

I am not convinced that some members asking questions are able to test correctly and verify if their test results actually meet regs....

Even though they may well be able to clip cable, screw trunking and wire a two way light switch!!!!

Someone was on the other day who had clearly energised a circuit without doing any dead tests!!!

as the plug in tester wasn't giving the correct lights!!!!!!!!!!

The symptoms described simply could NOT have happened if correct testing had been done.

And another person considering doing a PIR... 

but asks if a kitchen should be on its own circuit?????

I can only guess they have only skim read a few regs to pass some multi-choice assessment?

If I chose to do a car mechanics course

http://www.openstudycollege.com/courses/car-maintenance.html

and got a 12v meter from maplins..

started charging £10 per hour for servicing work....

don't think many people would call me a competent mechanic and leave me unsupervised tinkering with their Jag or Range Rover??? 

Even though DIY car mechanical work is legal and ok....

But then we are talking about Electrical work which is all safe..    no one can be injured ..

and any fool can start their own business once the course is done...

And we must treat ALL questions as though they are from competent person who know how to design, install, test, inspect and certify everything!

Friendly and Honesty are NOT mutually exclusive things!!!!

often it is you best friends and mates who will tell you you are being a Pratt and need to sort yourself out a bit! 

So if someone is clearly out of their depth....

do we comment or not??????????????????

opcorn

 

[Robin Spark]

I must admit, sometimes I feel like Matty and start to type out a thread only to delete it in fear or getting shot down.

To get the experience of Specs, Deke, Prodaves Steptoes takes a long time and there are always different situations or maybe really old electrical accessories that havent been encountered before.

However I think some people are really lazy and want to be spoon fed the answers to their query. I think peeps should do some research first if they are stuck, ie regs books, manufacturers websites, guidance notes and then propose what they are going to do and maybe ask for second opinion from forum members.

Often by speaking to others, you get different ideas to work/ installation methods that you might not have thought about before, or something new might have evolved ie SBS compact RCBO's that you wouldnt find online or in the local wholesaler.  This is where the forum is really good and also with new regs updates and new recommended practices.

As a final note, having been on the forum quite a long time I wish to stick around and keep it a positive experience.  It does seem quieter than it used to, but I think thats a sign of the times and not because some members just say it straight out to what they are thinking!

However, if someone sees something as dangerous then perhaps it is better to say and make the OP aware instead of keeping stum.

 

[Sharpend]

The problem is most people can't take criticism and are easily offended when told that they are not competant, despite their belief that they are because they passed a course. Why can't people just be honest and truthful from the start, I'm sure they would be respected more and therefore given the help as needed.

Many posters tend to come on here with the attitude that they are qualified and just need an answer to a specific problem, a problem that in their mind is difficult, when they are then put straight by the more experienced members that their knowledge is poor and that they are not qualified, the poster tends to disappear or fire a load of abuse and never return, this is PRIDE and gains them nothing. Dump the PRIDE and learn.

 

[binky]

Think I know how this thread got started.

Specs and Andy and few others, I totally agree with what you say, that isn't the issue, It's more how you say it. I just think that drubbing people as happens sometimes on here, will just push the silly sods away. They are stupid enough to think they can do this job, I just think it's better to educate them than send them off with a flea in their ear. Plus there's an awful lot of billhooks talked about at trade counters and on building sites. Some prat says you have to have a separate kitchen circuit nowdays its the law, a.n.other spark overhears said bull and seeds of doubt are sown in his mind. Later on they appear on this forum to ask a question. Another classic is the need to fit fire rated downlighters....

Training courses don't help as these have been dumbed down too much, especially the 'standard circuits' pushed around by NICEIC amoungst others a few years ago. All showers need 10mm cable don't you know :^O

Maybe I'm too kind to people, maybe it's me who should shut up, I just think you can dig at people in a more diplomatic way and perhaps re-educate the silly sods annoying as firk though they are.

 

[Evans Electric]

Good Grief .!!!...   I've never scoobed so many posts in my life ,      there are some excellent , erudite comments in these posts covering a problem/subject that keeps on popping up .  

Top post from Robin Spark ...............   mainly 'cos he mentions me :innocent :Blushing

 

[Manator]

I am happy to let this thread run, it is good to clear the air every now and then. I would also admit some very good points have been raised that could help the development of future discussions.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Just as another morsel for thought....

It is very often posted that we must be friendly to new members or we will frighten them off.....

Is it ever considered that some more mature, long term experienced members may lose interest and drift away if they keep been told to stop being honest and truthful when answering some posts???

Are new members more valuable than older long term members??

Or do both actually still have an important contribution to a forum???

The old phrase "I thought forums were all about asking questions" is often raised....

But just as important has got to be the willingness of experienced members to contribute and share their knowledge freely and honestly..

that is also a key part of a forum....

If the originator of a question doesn't like an answer..  That doesn't make the forum or the answer wrong!

opcorn

 

[Manator]

I think it is important to give benefit of doubt to new members, it may take them some time to find their feet and how to post correctly. However that said, open discussion is just that. This forum almost always self moderates, which is testament to its members.

 

[binky]

once newbies have got used to us, you can give them a bit of stick, but forum is advertised as 'the friendly forum' its nice to keep it that way.... us old hands can have aright good discussion an know its not mean't nastily you complete and utter barsteward that you are   nah nah na nah :^O . I skim in and out of here a lot becuse I'm bleeding busy, and lots of the posts are quite boring, but when I do have a quick read it just seems that all to often someone is getting roasted, yet you leave a complete and utter useless DIYer alone, I just don't get it sometimes, but maybe i should spend more time here. I retrained as a part 5ww - omly part cos of my previous electro mechanical background, I read and researched and posted stupid questions and got lampooned a few times, but I'm thick skinned and got a good brain, so took the abuse and occasionally told people to go firk themselves with something broken and sharp. Perhaps I had the sense to keep it simple until I really understood what I was doing. I certainly learn't a lot quickly from forums like this, and therefore maybe I'm a bit more sympathetic to newbies than some of you died in the wool old school types.

 

[Steve3948]

Some really good posts here, I personally will never say good or bad about anyone on the forum, new or old.

I think we all agree to disagree at some point about something or other.

A few are blunt and I don't blame them, it can be frustrating reading the same problems over and over, but this is a great forum and long may it be.