Trying To Source Push Buttons

[Sidewinder]

Well,...

I have been asked to replace all of the push buttons on an HMI for a customer, they have bought the machine used and they are doing improvements as things play up.

I've just upgraded the HMI monitor from monochrome CRT to colour TFT.

The next are the control push buttons & indicator lights.

The existing units are rectangular, standard 24mm x 18mm with a 16mm mounting hole.

The issue I am facing is that I need to replicate the buttons & functions that are there now.

Thus I need a button to fit the existing panel dimensions which must be illuminated, rectangular, 16mm mounting hole, and have 2NO & 2NC connections!

To get into re-designing the whole HMI & making a new one would drag up a whole new load of issues.

I am struggling to track them down, plus I really need to use the same design for all the buttons, they will look rubbish if I have different makes / types.

Machine builder is a pain, and now in about their 4 Phoenix incarnation since this machine was built, existing button maker is no more.

To add insult to injury I need to be able to put legends inside the buttons for the machine tool functions.

Before anyone says just buy another machine this thing is a HUGE column mill.

Bed around 20m x 3m, they bought it used from mainland Europe @ >£100k and they have spent about that on the transport, install, repairs, and improvements already, and, they are still better off than buying a new machine!

They are spreading out the improvements according to cash flow and faults, so they are looking to improve, and fix things right, but, it ain't all going to happen overnight, and, the manager who wants the buttons done has a order value limit before it goes to the directors, hence why it is little & often!

I am slowly looking at a total drives & controls retrofit, but in the mean time this has come up as the button heads are breaking up now.

This is not wasted work as I would not change this part of the HMI anyway.

So can anyone suggest any manufacturers/models, I've tried:

Siemens, round only;

Saia Burgess, can't find what I need;

Omron, can't find what I need;

Apem, can't find what I need;

GE, can't find what I need;

Schmersal, can't find what I need;

Eaton, can't find what I need;

EAO are a possibility that I am looking in to;

AB, yes they do them, but, can't find a UK supplier, Routeco don't list the right models, and if it has to be special order, then eyebrows will be raised, not even sure if the AB model switch is available in the UK, but it is IEC spec;

Kraus & Naimer can't find what I need;

Honeywell, can't find what I need;

TE possible, but can't get enough product data to decide;

NKK, can't find what I need;

Schneider, can't yet determine if I can get 2no & 2nc on a button,next job!

Anyone please?...

 

[kerching]

Fricking long time ago when I used to do sheet/plate metal working machinery i used a lot of Kraus Naimer. And telemecanique.....prob merged with Lidl or Aldi now

Just a thought

 

[Sidewinder]

Tele is Schneider, Kraus is still Kraus.

 

[ProDave]

CPC catalogue page 3477

16mm IP65 illuminated pushbuttons and indicators

e.g pushbutton actuator http://cpc.farnell.com/apem/a0101/18mm-momentry-p-button-18x24/dp/SW02407?Ntt=sw02407

double pole contact block http://cpc.farnell.com/apem/a0152b/contact-block-dpco/dp/SW02412?Ntt=sw02412

Select the required lense e.g http://cpc.farnell.com/apem/a0161b/18x24mm-lens-red/dp/SW02419?Ntt=sw02419

And you will need to buy a lamp.

you get the idea.

There's also this range http://cpc.farnell.com/eao/31-122-025/rectangular-momentary-pbutton-2/dp/SW02392

They might be better as it looks like separate NO and NC contacts rather than changeover, if that's important.

Oh wait, there's even more, this time from Omron http://cpc.farnell.com/omron-industrial-automation/a165-cjm/switch-body-18x24-mom/dp/SW04518?Ntt=sw+04518

switch contact http://cpc.farnell.com/omron-industrial-automation/a16-2/switch-socket-dpdt/dp/SW04515?Ntt=sw04515

etc

Show your appreciation with the scoob button :run

 

[Andy™]

did Kerch miss a chance to say 'I can get them from my corner shop'?!

 

[kerching]

I thought that my corner shop would have been a natural default first choice, so did not even mention it!

Back in the day when I was at school we had to study Latin!............some expressions/statements were classed as "understood" and did not require further comment, explanation etc. i feel my corner shop is within the same league

Ita dicens

 

[Sidewinder]

CPC catalogue page 3477

16mm IP65 illuminated pushbuttons and indicators

e.g pushbutton actuator http://cpc.farnell.com/apem/a0101/18mm-momentry-p-button-18x24/dp/SW02407?Ntt=sw02407

double pole contact block http://cpc.farnell.com/apem/a0152b/contact-block-dpco/dp/SW02412?Ntt=sw02412

Select the required lense e.g http://cpc.farnell.com/apem/a0161b/18x24mm-lens-red/dp/SW02419?Ntt=sw02419

And you will need to buy a lamp.

you get the idea.

There's also this range http://cpc.farnell.com/eao/31-262-025-2/rectang-maintained-pbutton-2c-o/dp/SW02394?Ntt=sw02394

They might be better as it looks like separate NO and NC contacts rather than changeover, if that's important.

Oh wait, there's even more, this time from Omron http://cpc.farnell.com/omron-industrial-automation/a165-cjm/switch-body-18x24-mom/dp/SW04518?Ntt=sw+04518

switch contact http://cpc.farnell.com/omron-industrial-automation/a16-2/switch-socket-dpdt/dp/SW04515?Ntt=sw04515

etc

PD,

None of these units offer 2 NO & 2 NC switches, I have gone through the Omron website, whilst they offer a DTDT contact, I would need 4 off DPDT contacts to give me 2no & 2nc contacts, I can't see from the info on the Omron website that it is possible to fit 4 of the DPDT contact blocks to a single switch along with a lamp unit.

As far as the Apem goes, pretty much the same issue.

DPDT is use unless I can use 4 of them, I have 4 separate circuits on a couple of buttons, so 2 change over contacts are no use what so ever.

The thing is Kerch, your corner shop does not sell what I need, I could not get on their big brothers website earlier to check that.

 

[OnOff]

Lets face it you phone up and it's "in stock" at Routeco which means at the MK depot or "7" days from the continent. When you say you're on your way they tell you it's actually in Milton Keynes!

I'd say Schneider for deffo. Picked at random but you get the idea. Anything "Tele" I use Medlocks in Crayford  but always go to Peter Gibb (ex Kent Electrical) down there 'cos he's a bit of a guru!

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-buttons/6101907/

(Re-reading.....think I might be missing the point here....................)

 

[Sidewinder]

Lets face it you phone up and it's "in stock" at Routeco which means at the MK depot or "7" days from the continent. When you say you're on your way they tell you it's actually in Milton Keynes!

I'd say Schneider for deffo. Picked at random but you get the idea. Anything "Tele" I use Medlocks in Crayford  but always go to Peter Gibb (ex Kent Electrical) down there 'cos he's a bit of a guru!

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-buttons/6101907/

(Re-reading.....think I might be missing the point here....................)

Onoff,

I could not find the correct colour combinations in rectangular heads in RS for the Schneider buttons, though, so far it is my closest match.

Routeco don't even list the AB buttons that match the spec on their site.

It's not do do with stock it's to do with listing availability.

My best bets so far are Schneider & AB, I am continuing research into these now.

The Omron button in your link is a DPDT which is basically a change over switch, that is no use, as I have 10 wires to connect to one of these switches, 2 for the lamp admittedly, the other 8 are for 4 separate circuits, 2 are NO & 2 are NC and there can be no connection between them.

 

[ProDave]

PD,

None of these units offer 2 NO & 2 NC switches, I have gone through the Omron website, whilst they offer a DTDT contact, I would need 4 off DPDT contacts to give me 2no & 2nc contacts, I can't see from the info on the Omron website that it is possible to fit 4 of the DPDT contact blocks to a single switch along with a lamp unit.

As far as the Apem goes, pretty much the same issue.

DPDT is use unless I can use 4 of them, I have 4 separate circuits on a couple of buttons, so 2 change over contacts are no use what so ever.

The thing is Kerch, your corner shop does not sell what I need, I could not get on their big brothers website earlier to check that.

I see your point.

If only a few of them need 2NO AND 2 NC then I would be tempted to buy a couple of these http://cpc.farnell.com/eao/31-152-025/square-momentary-pbutton-2-c-o/dp/SW02396?Ntt=SW02396

It looks like the switch modules stack up (comparing the SP and DP versions) so you might with a bit of jiggery pokery make a 4 pole one?  something to consider if all else fails.

 

[Sidewinder]

I see your point.

If only a few of them need 2NO AND 2 NC then I would be tempted to buy a couple of these http://cpc.farnell.com/eao/31-152-025/square-momentary-pbutton-2-c-o/dp/SW02396?Ntt=SW02396

It looks like the switch modules stack up (comparing the SP and DP versions) so you might with a nit of jiggery pokery make a 4 pole one?  something to consider if all else fails.

That one is square not rectangular, we have to consider aesthetics also!

I've been to the Apem (the manufacturers) website and I cannot find there the configuration I need in their tech data.

I REALLY don't want to start putting contactors in the pendant, as this gets thrown around, and to re-wire the cabling to the pendant would be a weeks work, the run from the pendant to the first control panel is 15m, and probably 30m from there to the main panel, through conduit, and power track, thus none of it is stationary.

Plus I only have about 3 or 4 spare buttons, and I can't really change the machine function so that the operator has to push 2 buttons for it to work rather than one, plus I could end up needing just as many contacts to interlock the buttons.

Not sure also if it would be feasible to put contactors in the pendant, space, power availability, they would be subject to considerable vibration & impacts fromt he pendant movement also.

Oh I also need some momentary and some latching!

 

[ProDave]

Okay this one from RS http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-buttons/6101806/

Ignore for the minute that it's out of stock, and the picture only shows the SP one. but it does state 2NO and 2NC rather than changeover.

Put a few on back order to see.

Oh and the CPC one, that was a mistake, it is available in rectangular  http://cpc.farnell.com/eao/31-122-025/rectangular-momentary-pbutton-2/dp/SW02392?Ntt=SW02392

Even if the contact blocks are not oficcially interchangeable, you might find in practice they are and you can fit 4 of them?

 

[Sidewinder]

I'm looking into Schneider now, but the Schneider data I have only lists 1no & 1nc per button, plus I can get software to do the legends for the Schneider buttons.

I'm not worried about the stock levels, I've had this enquiry for a week now!

Oh & your link is a square button too, not a rectangular!

Plus I need them in different colours as the colours of the buttons on the machine have a defined function!!!

 

[Sidewinder]

I suppose I could change it, but it would look terrible, not even sure if I could get the configuration I need in round though.

The added issue is that I need to put legends underneath the button covers!

I'm pretty sure I can do it in AB, but Routeco!!!

Also they don't list it on their site, so it will be special order, that will be painful, before I realised the issue I had missed on the first trawl I did on the Schneider buttons I was over £300 for buttons alone, and I did not have all the stuff in that.

I went for 1NO & 1NC, when I needed 2 of each!

I'm struggling for the legends too, Schneider to a labelling software that may have them all in it! ;

Oh it's OLD well not as old as me, but it is around late 80's IIRC/

 

[OnOff]

Worth a try? http://www.hazelelectronics.co.uk/illuminated_pushbuttons.htm

I was thinking that I'd try stay with a "known" manufacturer but just up the shed this morning and seeing the masses of old style Tele & AB bits what's the point? By the time you come to replace they'll have changed the range anyway!

 

[Sidewinder]

PLC in the pendant is not an option realistically, the additional wiring would be horrendous, plus that would then be the 4th PLC on the machine and they would need to interact with the Heidenhain TNC control screen, and another screen for PB's to get the machine to work.

Not even sure IF there is enough space in the conduit and power track to get the signals etc. back, whilst we would not be looking at any more signals, I'm not totally sure of what is there now, and how they could be replicated.

IF I have to generate signals from the plc for button lights, then that is not an issue, bar for the fact the PLC would be in the pendant, and not sure if there would be enough space.

I really don't want to get into a software solution, plus the other things that would then need to be considered, where as, IF I can replace like for like, then no issues, I'm not making any material changes to the machine control system.

To replace the buttons with rectangular the same size would be the easy option, IF they were available.

There is no space for legends so they need to be "in button" hence my looking at the same mechanical envelope.

To replace the plate would be quite a bit of work, do-able if needed, but, the machine would be down, pus the operators would need to re-learn the positions.

Don't ask, they are not the sharpest knives!

IF I could get sq or round with the correct contact configuration and, be able to legend them up "in button" then that could be an option.

This along with the AB option is an avenue for next week, as and when I get chance to look into this.

 

[OnOff]

How about these then?

http://www.idec.com/language/english/catalog/Switches/A6Series.pdf

16mm mounting hole 

24x18mm

LED

etc

 

[Sidewinder]

I hadn't found them, so good shout, can't tell from that though if I can get 2no & 2nc, can get one of each or 2 of one for definite.

The most contacts listed are dpdt.

 

[OnOff]

I hadn't found them, so good shout, can't tell from that though if I can get 2no & 2nc, can get one of each or 2 of one for definite.

The most contacts listed are dpdt.

Yep, saw the DPDT thing. IDEC though seem pretty amenable with their engraving and ticked all your other boxes so maybe they have a "special" - worth an enquiry. If not then much the same as say Tele XB6 stuff. 

EDIT: What make then are the existing ones btw?

 

[Marvo]

Deca do them but not sure where you'll find them in the UK.



Edit, maybe this crowd, it was from Google so you can probably do a better more focussed search  from your location