Twin Mains supply to double socket socket

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

And you have not stated where it says NOT to twist together either. It is all about good workmanship, which clearly you don't seem to appreciate. I been in the trade all my life, and retired as senior electric engineer for an international company. If I didn't know what I was talking about, I would hardly have achieved that position. And I was asked to take up a teaching position teaching electrics. So I think I'm entitled to say I know more than you.

The lack of factual detail in your posts suggests otherwise....

There are many people in numerous industries that have risen high up the promotion ranks outside of their genuine skills and abilities, generally waffling and blagging their way to new positions... (The 'who you know' not 'what you know' career development path)..
I have worked for various national & international companies in my earlier employment career, and its common to find persons higher up the management structure who are completely out of their depth and the wrong person for a particular role.

I would have thought with all of your claimed superior knowledge, you could quickly and easily provide a link to any wiring regulation related document that recommends twisting conductors together..?
That you suggest, (incorrectly), is good workmanship?

All I will add from my "apparent" less knowledgeable position, compared your undisclosed guidance..
a reference to some current industry standard recognised best practice guides.. such as "Guidance on connections in Consumer Units" available for free download along with other such documents..

I assume you would agree that terminating conductors in electrical accessories will have similar principles to those applicable in consumer units..?

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/mvrd1viz/a5-consumer-unit-technical-guide-2021.pdf

If you skip down to page 7, there is a bullet point that reads as follows:-

Which to me reads as "DO NOT TWIST CONDUCTORS" as it can cause far more issues that it allegedly resolves..

Unless you can provide a link to a current document that backs up your "Twisting" guidance claim..
then possibly you do not know more than some of the people on here..
and are more in the waffle and tosh category of miss-information?

I await your link with interest..

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

While we await your link...

Just to avoid any confusion, (especially for any older members whose memories may be getting a bit vague),
I would just clarify that this is NOT a BS7671 guidance... "How to Twist"

 

[Bruspark]

Gawd, is this still rolling on ?

Once upon a time twisting power conductors going into a terminal was regarded as either OK or good. So was smoking, buying british motorbikes and spam
- After all, this was waaay back when 'stranded' mains power cables and twisted together earths outside a box were also the norm.

Things have changed and so have recommended practices. Today there are few if any reasons to twist large cables and if there are any particular circumstances that make it essential (?) it can be noted as deviation at your own risk

 

[revjames]

good grief. have we still not received the BS7671 guidance on twisting conductors. No decent properly qualified, experienced spark 'electric engineer' or installer would do it but what do we know?

 

[Speed]

Putting that you must follow BS7671 in a contract only makes it legally binding for that contract,,, it does not make it law…..
As you should know the only laws that we have in the trade are the H&S at work act, the Electricity at work act and the building regulations….. everything else is non-statutory and therefore just guidance

Exactly, and since all building contracts state ALL works must be done to BS. And seeing as the Regs is a BS. All building must legally comply.

However, if you think the IET Regs is only guidance and you don’t need to follow them. Does that mean you completely ignore them? So you don’t comply with colour-codes, cable-loads, volt-drops, or do tests like earth-loop impedance (Zs), or complete any of the required test certificates. Because the Regs is not a pick and mix where you choose which rules you follow to suit you. Just because you get something to work, it doesn’t mean it correct or safe.

You either follow all the Regs, or not at all. A properly trained electrician knows how to follow them all. It usually ‘jack the lads’ who a ‘man in a van’ or maintenance electrical fitters who think they know it all. Who really don’t know what they doing. And what is worse is people trying to pass themselves off as electricians. Just because they passed an exam on the Regs. What a joke, as it doesn’t. Since passing an exam on the Regs doesn't make you an electrician.

 

[Speed]

I’m sorry @Speed but I think this is more about your interpretation rather than hard factual evidence.
The Regs are there as a minimum standard and if you as an engineer can find a no less safe way to install them you can deviate from them therefore they can not be law, as the law is the law and breaking it can bring legal action against you. If you can support your deviation then legally no action must be taken as you have only not followed guidance.
So for the lesser engineers who can’t think outside the box and maintain safety of the design, then it is wise to follow the minimum standard of the Regs, which is probably the majority, however I would expect a senior engineer to be comfortable with the odd deviation without sweating over it?

You technically correct. My comments are aimed at the " lesser engineers" as you say, and the 'one man in a van' and 'maintenance electricians'. Who know no better and install 13A in factories without accompanying correct paperwork. I seen some horrendous installs with disasters outcomes. Since most industrial power tools exceed 13A. As I'm sure you aware, any deviation from the Regs MUST be documented which Regs were not followed, with accompanying justification and calculations why not. I have yet to see this stated any of this in Complication certificates or Minor Works certificates I seen if they exist. The Regs is not a pick and mix, but how you comply with the 'Electricity at Work Regulation 1989'. Too many use the guidance status as an excuse not to do a proper job. Besides, since all building contracts stipulate somewhere that all works to be to BS. This requires the Regs to be followed, as it a BS. Otherwise, it a breach of contract. This is what makes it legally binding and the Law. However, judging by number of cowboys out there. No one teaches that aspect.

 

[Fleeting]

I'm installing a ring final in a factory at the end of the month can't wait does this mean I know no better, but I have clear understanding of BS7671 and the book is not saying no. It's all good I shall submit an EIC listing no departures.

 

[binky]

You technically correct. My comments are aimed at the " lesser engineers" as you say, and the 'one man in a van' and 'maintenance electricians'.

seen plenty of ***** from so called electrical enginners too. My favourite was 2off 32A ring mains in a smallish dometic kitchen, wired in 4mm cable - and no, the cables were not being run through insulation. Yet the external lighting, front and back large gardens and driveway was designed to all come on at the same time...

 

[NozSpark]

Exactly, and since all building contracts state ALL works must be done to BS. And seeing as the Regs is a BS. All building must legally comply.

However, if you think the IET Regs is only guidance and you don’t need to follow them. Does that mean you completely ignore them? So you don’t comply with colour-codes, cable-loads, volt-drops, or do tests like earth-loop impedance (Zs), or complete any of the required test certificates. Because the Regs is not a pick and mix where you choose which rules you follow to suit you. Just because you get something to work, it doesn’t mean it correct or safe.

You either follow all the Regs, or not at all. A properly trained electrician knows how to follow them all. It usually ‘jack the lads’ who a ‘man in a van’ or maintenance electrical fitters who think they know it all. Who really don’t know what they doing. And what is worse is people trying to pass themselves off as electricians. Just because they passed an exam on the Regs. What a joke, as it doesn’t. Since passing an exam on the Regs doesn't make you an electrician.

No, not EXACTLY... previously you have said that BS7671 is LAW if it's contained in the terms of a contract... this is absolutely not the case, it only makes it legally binding for the contract, it does not make it law.... you're getting contract law and tort law mixed up.

The fact of the matter is that BS7671 is only guidance, IIRC someone tried to use it as evidence in a case a few years ago and they were told that that it had no standing in law and that they would have to prove their point another way....

https://www.voltimum.co.uk/articles/british-standardsiee-regulations-and
As for "A properly trained electrician knows how to follow them all" (the regs), I doubt that any of us know all of them in minute detail, however most of us know the ones that we use on a daily basis and know that we don't know the others and have a good idea as to where we can reference the ones that we don't

I think that most of us in this and other industries will agree that some of the most dangerous people in a work place tend to be the "know all's"

 

[revjames]

I'm a lesser engineer then... maintenance sparks - what do we know? plenty of rings in workshops - I was looking in that funny blue book for the ring piece?

 

[binky]

I'm a lesser engineer then... maintenance sparks - what do we know? plenty of rings in workshops - I was looking in that funny blue book for the ring piece?

And don't forget us van drivers know nothing either....

 

[kerching]

And don't forget us van drivers know nothing either....

@Andy™ is allegedly only a Tea Boy.....he dreams of being a van driver

 

[binky]

he'll have to make it first as speed's pet :

can't help thinking our retired wonder boy should do the industry a big favour and stay retired

 

[Speed]

I'm installing a ring final in a factory at the end of the month can't wait does this mean I know no better, but I have clear understanding of BS7671 and the book is not saying no. It's all good I shall submit an EIC listing no departures.

If you listing no departures, it just goes to show you don't understand BS7671. Read Appendix 15, page 505, item (iv). Where you get your qualifications from, copied off the internet?

 

[Fleeting]

If you listing no departures, it just goes to show you don't understand BS7671. Read Appendix 15, page 505, item (iv). Where you get your qualifications from, copied off the internet?

How many more times, Appendix 15 contains NO REGULATIONS.

 

[kerching]

To save you all reaching for your regs books


You're welcome!

 

[binky]

To save you all reaching for your regs books

View attachment 13117
You're welcome!

I'm looking for the bit that says not for use in factories

 

[Sharpend]

I'm looking for the bit that says not for use in factories

Really! You’ll be well retired first!

 

[binky]

Really! You’ll be well retired first!

I have retired, so must be true. I'm just off to twist some cables together, can't beat the 'old ways'

 

[kerching]

I'm looking for the bit that says not for use in factories

Seriously! You cannot see it?....it's just to the side of the Eclipse Padsaw Blade handle, below the Yankee driver, and above the Blakely Tape