Unpaid for materials

[rapparee]

I was always led to believe that we don't have any right within the law to reclaim our materials in case of non payment .

I do remember , when employed,  working on a school extension ,  the boss phoned me on the builder's site phone to say he'd been warned the builder was going ponto , and action was being taken the next day,    wait till they have left site then get everything you can of ours off site  ...another two of our vans would be coming over ....all power tools , pipe benders , steps, all the light fittings , any dist. bds not fixed ..............get the lot back to the yard , as we would all be locked out tomorrow and would have to claim to get our own gear back . 

A yorkshire company went belly up during the year. The only problem for us was that we sent the internals of one of our machines over to them last february the job was too take six to ten weeks, they're coming back to finish the job next week.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/updated-jobs-to-be-cut-as-wakefield-firm-group-rhodes-announces-restructure-1-8085953

 

[rapparee]

Hmmm, recovery of materials is part of recovery of losses incurred shorely?

No. As soon as our material is installed it becomes part of the building. It's up to us then chase for breach of contract for non-payment. You can bankrupt him but you can't take the cables back off him.

If it was a machine that was standing alone in the middle of the floor then yes that is recoverable.

 

[Sidewinder]

It's the widget ruling @rapparee yes?

Once even partly used you can't recover, but, unused sockets reels of cable etc. on site are different yes?

 

[poni]

A yorkshire company went belly up during the year. The only problem for us was that we sent the internals of one of our machines over to them last february the job was too take six to ten weeks, they're coming back to finish the job next week.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/updated-jobs-to-be-cut-as-wakefield-firm-group-rhodes-announces-restructure-1-8085953

Rapparee what kind of machines do you make?

 

[rapparee]

It's the widget ruling @rapparee yes?

Once even partly used you can't recover, but, unused sockets reels of cable etc. on site are different yes?

Yeah that's right. It's still on the floor it's ours. Once installed it belongs to the building.

 

[rapparee]

Rapparee what kind of machines do you make?

We make dimplex heaters. But the machines we use to make the heaters are presses to form the parts.

 

[apprentice87]

Even worse.. Say you take your lathe to be rebuilt [for example] and while doing this the firm goes bust. Do not imagine you can just go and get your lathe back... Go to the back of the queue like other creditors...

"Your" lathe, now forms part of the assets of the company as it is "work in hand" and they are deemed to have added value to it, in other words, they now have an interest in it, you now owe them..

You would have to arrange to buy your own machine back from the receivers....

Not sure what the position would be if you had dealt with the firm as a "consumer" i.e. you were deemed to be a private punter and not a "business" yourself and so were covered by the sale of goods act...

Over to Rapparee!!

john..

 

[Lurch]

Even if you do have some recourse against unpaid clients unless you have an accepted contract in place that states that you can remove all materials you can't do anything regardless of what state you leave the place in. Just mentioning it on the quote only goes part way towards solving the issue, you still need a signed acceptance from the client first. I could write whatever I wanted on my quotes, but no court would accept a contract not signed by anyone, or by the company only. Starting the work goes some way towards it being inferred by the client that they are accepting the contract terms but it wouldn't stand up in court.

 

[Sharpend]

It would come under tort law.

Is this lost in translation? Don't you mean 'taught' law?  

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

As said earlier (by Sharpend) make sure your payment terms include a part-payment, (or deposit) at the start of the job that covers the cost of materials....

So if no initial payment then no work started...

99% of people are quite happy to pay up front to order goods on-line...

So if someone expects you to supply and fit and test and commission and certify your work with no part payment before the work is complete then they are not worth doing any jobs for IMHO. 

Once the work is done a final balance payment would basically be just the labour content...

So worst case scenario for you is you still always have the cost of any materials purchased covered so you can pay your suppliers.

This method also helps with customers who are quite happy to pay.....

but where a job gets delayed part way through...   waiting for other trades, or the weather, or replacing a faulty item etc...   etc...

Going back to the original point ...

Even if you could go back and recover your materials...

the chances are they are no longer worth as much as you were trying to sell them for...

As they are basically second-hand...

You probably can't sell them on to another customer for the full original price !

Guinness   

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Even if you do have some recourse against unpaid clients unless you have an accepted contract in place that states that you can remove all materials you can't do anything regardless of what state you leave the place in. Just mentioning it on the quote only goes part way towards solving the issue, you still need a signed acceptance from the client first. I could write whatever I wanted on my quotes, but no court would accept a contract not signed by anyone, or by the company only. Starting the work goes some way towards it being inferred by the client that they are accepting the contract terms but it wouldn't stand up in court.

+1 :Salute

Whatever rights I may or may not have...

pretty much every job that involves a three figure sum or more I have a signed agreement stating a schedule of work and the costs and the payment terms for all jobs I do...

Unless I have a signed agreement I don't order any materials or even consider starting the job..

My agreements include a box for the customer to Sign & Print & Date AND note the earliest date the client wants the work to commence...

So far (touchwood) never had any issues with any customers not paying..

(excluding one lady who was a bit emotional and not thinking straight as she was just staring a new home following a bit of a bumpy divorce!)

But other than that..

every customer since I started on my own Feb 1999 has paid up no problems.

It may take a bit longer to word a few quotes correctly...

but I consider this a worthwhile investment as bad cash flow is the killer of small businesses...

As I read before going self employed...   (possibly paraphrased due to Guinness Guinness )

Full order book + Bad cash-flow = probable failure & no fall back if prolonged or worsening delays getting in money.

Slow order book + Good cash flow = probable keep the engine running & a bit of fall back to stay afloat during quiet periods.

 . 

Guinness

 

[steptoe]

Ive had this recently actually,

i asked for 30% deposit,

then 30% after 1st fix, remainder on completion,

I went and done some preliminary works, was kept promised deposit would be tomorrow tomorrow etc,

I went, took all my tools etc off site,

next day, phone rings, please dont leave me in the lurch, I need this doing,

'yep, and since you messed me about Im really busy with customers that dont have a problem paying deposits,  I need a deposit from you, its 40% upfront, then 40% then 20%, payment due in morning'

40% duly paid 1st thing next day,

 

[apprentice87]

Is this lost in translation? Don't you mean 'taught' law?  

The law of tort is what is applied in civil cases. It kind of governs the rights you might have, or the responsibilities you have to others for acts or omissions.. It is kind of hard to define, but once you know what it is you do??? Rapparee will have a better explanation!!

It all arises out of common law and is all based on precedent so far as i know, covers things like trespass [which can be to persons or property] and the like.

You responsibility not to light big fires in your garden which then burns down your neighbours house [a tortious act] would all be covered by this sort of thing. [Rylands i imagine??] as you brought the fire onto your property so it was down to you if it escaped!!

Not sure what the position would be if, say, lightning caused the fire, as that is an act of god, but then if you chose to keep the wood there in the first place, might be down to you after all...

john..

 

[Blue Duck]

mmmm.

Where does putting a lockout on a REC2S until you get paid sit? :innocent

 

[Murdoch]

The key to avoiding non payment is down to the wording of the works you are v going took do on the estimate or quote.... I have never asked for a deposit, and have only lost under 1 ton in 7  years....