V phase (yet again...)

[Andy™]

Anyone read the article on this month PE?

letter wrote in (short version): as an example, a kettle will use the same power but take longer, so wont save anything

V phase response (short version). correct, but some stuff will save power. eg fridges, freezers and lighting

now, i can agree with the lighting - less voltage, less current, less power used. but the light will be dimmer. but you dont leave it on longer to make it up, so there would be power saving there. thats providing you dont stick a higher rated lamp in the fitting because its now too dim.

but fridges and freezers? sorry, but it still takes the same amount of power to keep the fridge/freezer at its temp. if the motor is running at a lower voltage, it will take slightly longer to get the same effect. same as the kettle.

yet again, more proof the whole thing is a big con.

maybe i could save customers money by ignoring the 3% rule and wiring everything in 0.5mm

 

[ProDave]

Of course you can apply the "low energy bulb" argument:

An ordinary fillament lamp produces a lot of "waste" heat, so it's argued that it is energy inefficient.

BUT where does that waste heat go? Into your room. The waste heat, warms your room a little, meaning the central heating thermostat turns off a little sooner, saving you heating energy.

Granted in the summer, when you don't have the heating on then the waste heat from lighting really is wasted. But then you don't use the lights much in summer do you?

All this low energy lighting and v phase stuff is just nibbling around the extreme edges of energy saving.

The only meaningful energy "saving" will be if we all install PV panels and a wind turbine on our houses to actually generate a useful amount of power.

 

[kme]

Its designed for the gullible, IMO.

Bit like the definition of the national lottery: A tax on people who are bad at maths.....

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I agree Andy, a con.

25 years ago we fitted huge transformers (3ft square ) to each floor of an office block for the corridor & feature lighting, which was all 60w RO40 lamps.This dropped the voltage 20v if i remember correctly. We were told this was purely to make the lamps last longer & also cut down on maintenance changing them. No energy was saved as they fitted more to overcome the reduced light levels

 

[Manator]

I did a recent survey, the building insisted on having LED light replacement, to save money, the required outlay and the eventual pay back period would have meant that they would pay for them just as they were due to be replaced. There argument was that they saved around

 

[binky]

If you drive to London at 100mph, it uses a lot more fuel than driving to London at 70mph, but you only end up in London. V phase argue that as appliances are designed to work at 220v and we supply 240v, we effectively give them an unnecessary performance boost, ergo there is room for a saving. Did the training course, lights are defo dimmer, but you wouldn't notice a fridge running slower.

 

[aptsys]

V phase argue that as appliances are designed to work at 220v and we supply 240v

I can't think of any that are specifically designed to work at 220V.

Appliances with heating elements are only designed to work within a range of voltages and will get the work done quicker at a higher voltage, probably most of the loads in a house will have SMPSUs in, which actually are more efficient at the higher voltage.

Only incandescent light bulbs and induction motors could really offer any 'saving' and the compressor in my fridge has '240V' stamped on the back of it.

 

[PC Electrics]

A lot of misunderstanding and urban myths. The engineering is sound and it will work.

Of course it won't work for appliances where heat is the desired output (and V Phase acknowledge this). So, kettles, showers, immersions etc.

It does however work for anything that uses a motor. So motors in dishwashers, washing machines etc etc will work slightly more efficiently so a saving is made.

Lights will be slightly dimmer. But noticably so? Maybe, maybe not; depends on the lamps and the application. The saving may be prefered to the 'excess' light.

The device is especially effective with fridges and freezers because the overall efficiency of these type of appliances is rather low. Although there would be a slight loss in performance it is unlikely to be noticed, but the increase in efficiency makes for quite a saving.

The basics are, that all appliances are designed to run properly at a supply voltage down to 210v (230v nominal less 6% supply tolerance, less 3% in installation). This is a design requirement which must be tested for to be able to CE mark. When they are supplied with 240v (or more) appliances will consume more power, but most of that extra power simply goes to generate extra heat without doing any extra useful work (especially in refridgeration appliances where the overall efficiency is limited by cheap components to keep purchase costs down). When the voltage is backed off to 220v, this 'extra waste' is elliminated without any apparent loss in performance.

I have a corner shop near me with 10 fridges and freezers - do you think he's interested in having an average saving of 17% on running these? You bet he is.

 

[sprocketflup]

Bit like the definition of the national lottery: A tax on people who are bad at maths.....

 

[Nicky Tesla]

Would my TV end up playing everything in slow motion?

 

[Andy™]

Ok Im lost at that bit, eh?

VAT on 250 is

 

[aptsys]

It does however work for anything that uses a motor. So motors in dishwashers, washing machines etc etc will work slightly more efficiently so a saving is made.

How much energy is used by dishwashers and washing machines by the motor? Hardly any - the main consumption of energy in these devices is the heating element.

If I do a cold wash on my washing machine, it consumes only 0.04kWh - a whopping 0.44 pence!

The difference in brightness from incandescent lamps is very noticeable due to the non-linearity of the intensity vs voltage.

As far as I can see, fridges and freezers are the only thing that could potentially benefit as the loss in torque of their induction motors should go unnoticed, but certainly isn't worth the outlay for one of these devices.

How did you arrive at your 17% figure?

 

[ProDave]

Now here's an energy saving question:

Does anyone know a washing powder / fabric conditioner or other additive, that will allow towels, when removed from a washing machine and just hung up to dry to be all nice and fluffy, rather than stiff as sandpaper?

If so, it would mean we don't have to dry them with that pet energy waster, the tumble dryer, that pumps 3KW of heat out through a vent pipe, completely wasted, just to make the towels nice and fluffy.

If someone could find a solution to that, the energy saving would be a LOT more than the tiny amount saved by this vphase sort of stuff.

 

[steptoe]

ASHP Dave,

I done recently where the dryer vent was deliberately positioned directly at the ASHP intake!

dunno how much more efficient it will be, but should deffo make a difference esp as the dryer will be run more in the colder weather, when the ASHP will be working harder.

but I get your point,

 

[NozSpark]

Why not just dry them on the line and then bang them in the dryer for 5 or 10 mins to fluff them up?

 

[ProDave]

Why not just dry them on the line and then bang them in the dryer for 5 or 10 mins to fluff them up?

Tried that doesn't work.

Only compromise is 20 mins in the tumble dryer which doesn't fully dry them, but then when dried natrually from there they still pass the fluffy test.

 

[aptsys]

Now here's an energy saving questionoes anyone know a washing powder / fabric conditioner or other additive, that will allow towels, when removed from a washing machine and just hung up to dry to be all nice and fluffy, rather than stiff as sandpaper?

If so, it would mean we don't have to dry them with that pet energy waster, the tumble dryer, that pumps 3KW of heat out through a vent pipe, completely wasted, just to make the towels nice and fluffy.

If someone could find a solution to that, the energy saving would be a LOT more than the tiny amount saved by this vphase sort of stuff.

White vinegar instead of fabric softener works well. Half way though natural drying give the towels a vigorous shake in both directions and once again when dry. Job done

 

[steptoe]

WTF is this,

its turning into housewifes corner,! :slap

 

[m4tty]

Anyone else joining in this mothers meeting lol thought i was picking the kids up from school then all this talk of fluffy washing ffs lol

 

[batty]

Washing eh womens work only time I might do it if my dust sheets need washing.