Wago connectors pulled on assessment

[Manator]

I have worked closely with the ESC, and can vouch for Graham Clarke, a truly sound man, not sure what he does these days though not had contact for about 4 years.

 

[professional]

I asked a very simple question :

If the ESC is all about safety, why are all of the meetings held in secret under non-disclosure agreements?

3 years and still no reply ....

I am now an expert in interpreting the "um, ah" chorus of replies and can pin-point the direction of their downward stares to an astonishing degree of accuracy .... I think that they may be worried that I may decide to take them seriously and really go for them. opcorn

 

[Manator]

Justly so, I always encourage people to confront those who implement any regulation, remember some of these guys have not left their desks for about a decade or more. To be honest, its one of the main reasons I am on this forum, I just like to see what the average electricians take on all this is, I often get bemused by what I would consider competent articulate members getting hot under the collar when it comes to assessments.

I am the rudest up my own *** electrician I know, and my assessors fear me! Not me fear them.

 

[professional]

Looking forward to the Ricoh - a day wandering around laughing at the "bargains" with a Screwfix catalogue in one hand and a coffee in the other.

Check out which seminars are most likely to harvest the most bull**** for the following day.

A few pints, curry and a chat in the evening then a good breakfast to set me up for round two ....

 

[professional]

I WANT them to know who I am ....

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 23:02 ---------- Previous post was made at 22:58 ----------

Justly so, I always encourage people to confront those who implement any regulation, remember some of these guys have not left their desks for about a decade or more. To be honest, its one of the main reasons I am on this forum, I just like to see what the average electricians take on all this is, I often get bemused by what I would consider competent articulate members getting hot under the collar when it comes to assessments.I am the rudest up my own *** electrician I know, and my assessors fear me! Not me fear them.

I have stated to every assessor that I have had that if they want to pick fault with my work they can (and I quote) "bring their ******* tools with them and show me how it`s done".

It sets the tone .... but to be fair, all of the assessors that I ve had have been decent blokes!

 

[steptoe]

is this going to be akin to walking into the saloon in some wild west town? :|

 

[Nicky Tesla]

To gain the approval of the symbol MF, Wago have had to go through more testing, remember that only the UK have this regulation, so they are defending their UK market at a great cost to themselves. If it was me I would tell the UK to do one.

I thought we were now living in an age of euro harmony as in the need to change our cable colours to European standard. So why are we in Britain being allowed to introduce another UK only standard for it to be changed to a European standard at a later date?

 

[Steve3948]

Well I had my NICEIC Approved annual assessment today and the assessor had with him the director of the NICEIC who was there to watch the assessment being done with the use of an iPad.

I thought it an ideal opportunity to mention what the OP had mentioned in his post regarding the Wago Box.

The reply I had was that he hoped an assessor had not advised a rework of the installation and felt that incorrect.

He mentioned to his knowledge only one manufacturer had been able to use the MF logo, but it was early days and he was sure the rest would follow in due course including Wago.

Adding that if the designer of the installation and manufacturer are of the opinion it's MF then it meets the requirement or words to that affect.

So the NICEIC are not enforcing they are not to be used and are ok with them and feel sure that they will carry the MF logo in due course.

He did mention that another similar product may not be, but Wago are fine.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

54 replies and no one has asked why you pulled your Wago's

 

[a1]

Did you mention it was on this forum mate?

 

[Steve3948]

Did you mention it was on this forum mate?

I sure did O)

 

[andylherts]

After this was first posted I had my first assessment with the NICEIC applying for DI status. I was a bit worried as I fitted wago connectors on lighting and a power circuit on both my jobs. My assessor didn't have a problem with them and was surprised when I told him of this post.

I even managed to pass and now just waiting for the NICEIC to pull their finger out with the rest of my application.

 

[M107]

I mentioned to my assessor this post & the wago MF issue, he didnt seem to have any problem with the use of wago's.

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I know he has also dropped in to view the forum.

 

[Cactus Jack]

Hi Guys, In reponse to your questions here is some information about the Wagobox Junction Box System, Wago connectors and the MF Logo

What is the MF logo?

The MF logo was introduced in BS5733:2010 "General Requirements for electrical accessories" as a marking that can be used on accessories to indicate that the accessory doesn't require further inspection, testing or maintenance after installation.

What is BS5733:2010?

BS5733 is a British Standard which specifies tests to check the safety in normal use of electrical accessories not covered by other specific British standards.

Is the MF logo mentioned in BS7671: Requirements for Electrical Installations?

Yes, the MF logo is mentioned in BS7671 Amendment No. 1. 2011 in Section 526.3 (vi).

Section 5 deals with the Selection and Erection of Equipment.

Subsection 526. Electrical Connections:

Requirement 526.3 Every connection shall be accessible for inspection, testing and maintenance except for the following:

...

526.3(vi) Equipment complying with BS5733 for a maintenance free accessory and marked with the symbol MF and installed in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

How has this changed from the previous edition of BS7671?

In the previous edition of BS7671 the regulation 526.3(v) was "A joint forming part of the equipment complying with the appropriate product standard."

This was widely accepted as a BSEN60670-22 junction box with maintenance free terminals as this is indicated in Appendix 15 of BS7671: Ring and Radial final circuit arrangements: "A junction box to BSEN60670-22 with screw terminals must be accessible for inspection, testing and maintenance or alternatively use maintenance free terminals."

The Wagobox and Wago terminals are still Maintenance Free, that hasn't changed. It's BS7671 that has changed and now requires an accessory to use terminals tested to BS5733 Maintenance Free screwless terminals.

So is BSEN60670-22 not an applicable junction box standard anymore?

BSEN60670-22 is still the applicable standard for junction boxes and continues to be referenced in many places within BS7671.

What does the MF mark mean?

The MF mark indicates that an accessory "does not require further inspection, testing or maintenance after installation in a circuit and incorporates screwless terminals (re: 14.5 Terminals for use within maintenance free accessories) and cable clamps to secure associated cables" (From section 3.31 BS5733:2010).

Section 14.5 within the BS5733:2010 details a number of tests that need to be performed on the screwless terminals to establish that they are appropriate for use in a MF marked accessory.

Can the Wagobox have the MF mark?

In order to put an MF mark on the Wagobox we must use terminals which satisfy the tests set out in BS5733 for maintenance free screwless terminals.

The Wagobox and Wagobox - Light boxes are designed to be used with the Wago 773, 222 and 224 ranges of screwless terminals. These terminals are already tested compliant with BSEN90998-1 (Connecting devices for low voltage circuits for household and similar purposes), as well as:

Mechanical Tests

* Pull-Out Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1, IEC/EN 60998-2-2, IEC/EN 60999-1

* Shock Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-27, 60068-2-30; Railway Applications IEC/EN 61373

* Vibration Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-6; Shipbuilding GL, LR, DNV; Railway Applications EN 61373

Electrical Tests

* Temperature-Rise Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1, IEC/EN 60998-1, IEC/EN 1-61984

* Derating Curve to IEC/EN 60512-5-2

* Voltage Drop Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1

* Short-Time Withstand Current Test (Short-Circuit Withstand Capacity) to IEC/EN 60947-7-1

* Insulation Parameters to IEC/EN 60664-1

* Power-Frequency Withstand Voltage Test to IEC/EN 60998-1

* Rated Impulse Withstand Voltage Test to IEC/EN 60664-1

* IP Ratings for Electrical Equipment to IEC/EN 60529

Material Tests

* Needle Flame Test to IEC/EN 60695-2-2

* Glow-Wire Test to IEC/EN 60998-1, IEC/EN 60695-2-11

Environmental Tests

* Temperature Cycling Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1, IEC/EN 60998-2-2

* Industrial Atmospheres to EN ISO 6988, IEC 60068-2-42, IEC/EN 60068-2-60

* Salt Spray Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-11, Marine Applications GL, LR, DNV

* Quick Change of Temperature to IEC/EN 60068-2-14

* Damp Heat, Cyclic (12 + 12 Hour Cycle) to IEC/EN 60068-2-30, Marine Applications GL, LR, DNV as a wide range of Mechanical, Electrical, Material and environmental tests.

They have also been extensively tested and approved by many safety standards (e.g. UL,KEMA EUR, DVE, CSA etc) for use in different geographic areas around the world.

Incredibly, BS5733:2010 only references one (Vibration Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-6) of the above internationally recognised tests. All the other MF terminal tests in BS5733 are neither documented or used in any other internationally recognised product standard.

Despite all of the above and the flawless operation of billions of Wago 773, 222 and 224 terminals around the world, these new tests will still need to be performed on the Wago 773, 222 and 224 terminals before we can consider putting an MF symbol on the Wagobox or Wagobox-Light for the UK market.

These tests are being done and when we have had verification that the Wago terminals comply with the MF terminal requirements set out in BS5733 we will then be able to mark the Wagobox system with an MF.

Why is it taking so long?

Wago are a large multinational company with an excellent safety record that has spent millions of Euros developing and testing their products to internationally recognised product standards. BS5733 is not a product standard and the MF terminal tests detailed in BS5733 are not required anywhere else other than in BS7671 which is a UK standard. The new tests include very long duration tests which take an extended period to complete and are consequently very expensive. This additional need for further tests on a product already in production has taken some considerable commitment and effort by Wago in Germany to include this further testing into their scheduled program of work.

How does this effect my past installations?

It doesn't. Standards are never applied retrospectively.

What about installations I've done recently?

Please refer to 511.2 in BS7671. At this stage it's a case of the designer of the installation being satisfied that the use of the product offers the same degree of safety as afforded by compliance.

I hope that this has been helpful, if you have any further queries regarding MF and the Wagobox system then please do get in touch and we will be happy to try and answer any questions.

Well, basically above you were arguing why wagobox could be used as an MF JB.

I was pleased to receive your newsletter about the launch of the wagobox mf...........that was until i read your MF datasheet on your website:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.wagobox.com/docs/files/Wagobox-mf-qna-v3.pdf

Page 2: maximum current limits: 773's 20A, 222's 20A and 773's 32A.

As I had used 222's in a 32A circuit, and 773 in a 40A circuit I must assume that the assessor was correct: wagobox and wag0 connectors could not be used as MF in this application .

PS: you further explain the reason for derating the 222's to 20 as being max diameter of flex. Does this mean they can be used as 32A with flat twin and earth 4mm that has a short dimension less than 8mm?

 

[SteveT]

Hi. Please helpHad NICEIC assessment today. Assessor went mental because I have used wago in inaccessible location. He claims they are not bs5733 mf as required by amendment 1. He wants a rework.

I have searched wago site and can not find any reference to mf. Do any of you have any info?

Thanks

Just had notification from WAGO that they are now MF accredited - the boxes have a mod to keep them locked with tools needed to open

sorry cant find a link!!! buthere is the body of email:

BS5733 Maintenance Free Wagobox

We are delighted to announce that the Wagobox junction box soon be available with the BS5733 MF mark. The MF logo was introduced in BS5733:2010 "General Requirements for electrical accessories" as a marking that can be used on accessories to indicate that the accessory doesn't require further inspection, testing or maintenance after installation. Since the 1st of January 2012 the MF mark has become a requirement for maintenance free accessories and we have been working hard with Wago, the manufacturer of the 773 and 222 terminals, to complete all the required analysis, testing and product upgrades to ensure the Wagobox can be used as a maintenance free accessory in accordance with requirements of BS5733. This work has been completed and the new Wagobox with the BS5733 MF mark will be available in October 2012. Apart from the additional product marking, the new Wagobox has a lid locking mechanism and will be supplied with an enhanced set of user instructions. For further information please visit the Wagobox support page at Advice and support where we have posted a Question and Answer document in the FAQ section. If you have any further queries then please do call and we will be happy to answer your questions.

 

[Cactus Jack]

Just had notification from WAGO that they are now MF accredited - the boxes have a mod to keep them locked with tools needed to opensorry cant find a link!!! buthere is the body of email:

BS5733 Maintenance Free Wagobox

We are delighted to announce that the Wagobox junction box soon be available with the BS5733 MF mark. The MF logo was introduced in BS5733:2010 "General Requirements for electrical accessories" as a marking that can be used on accessories to indicate that the accessory doesn't require further inspection, testing or maintenance after installation. Since the 1st of January 2012 the MF mark has become a requirement for maintenance free accessories and we have been working hard with Wago, the manufacturer of the 773 and 222 terminals, to complete all the required analysis, testing and product upgrades to ensure the Wagobox can be used as a maintenance free accessory in accordance with requirements of BS5733. This work has been completed and the new Wagobox with the BS5733 MF mark will be available in October 2012. Apart from the additional product marking, the new Wagobox has a lid locking mechanism and will be supplied with an enhanced set of user instructions. For further information please visit the Wagobox support page at Advice and support where we have posted a Question and Answer document in the FAQ section. If you have any further queries then please do call and we will be happy to answer your questions.

This s what I was referring to in my post. As you will see from the advice link it's not as simple as that. Complying is not just a case of carry on as you were!!!!

 

[wozz]

Not by a long shot! all seems a bit silly to me!

 

[SteveT]

This s what I was referring to in my post. As you will see from the advice link it's not as simple as that. Complying is not just a case of carry on as you were!!!!

the point is, the work has been done by WAGO they have jumped throught he hoop so to speak and future boxes will be actually marked - no chance of any rouge Hitl, sorry assessor, creating their own rules.

As for harmonisation, dont get to hung up - mainy Euro regs are open to interpretion by home country, as long as they meet the minimum its ok.

Ever look at the electrics when in ski resorts - Italy, Germany, Austria, France, they are all a bit dodgy!!!

 

[binky]

The Wagos (as in DIN terminals - Spring Clamp) are one of the only connector approved for shipboard military use through their intensive testing (vibration) and zero loss of connectionsI digress....

This is a wago pdf that may help, there is also a support email where they should be able to help you fight your cause with the nice nic man

In my younger days at British Aerospace, Naval weapons division, I used to do quite a bit of enviromental testing which involved temperature cycling assemblies on a vibration test bed. Spring loaded connectors out lived any other type of electrical connection - they don't unscrew, and are far less fragile than a solder joint. The only viable alternative is a very old fashioned method called 'wire wrapping' which I have never seen used since. When used on Seadart missle it could suvive 'upper flight level vibration'. That's when the missle is approaching Mach 2, is around 25 miles from the ship that launched it (about 90 - 120) seconds from launch and vibrating like buggery. By this time the missle could be something like 20,000 feet up aswell. Please don't hold me to those numbers, it was a fair while ago, but they are roughly correct.

anyway in short, spring loaded connectors like wago push fits tend to be more reliable than any other equivalent, unless you happen to have been trained in some advanced solder joint techniques.

 

[Cactus Jack]

the point is, the work has been done by WAGO they have jumped throught he hoop so to speak and future boxes will be actually marked - no chance of any rouge Hitl, sorry assessor, creating their own rules.As for harmonisation, dont get to hung up - mainy Euro regs are open to interpretion by home country, as long as they meet the minimum its ok.

Ever look at the electrics when in ski resorts - Italy, Germany, Austria, France, they are all a bit dodgy!!!

Steve

I think you have missed the "small print". Its not the case of the assessors being rogue its wago! To get them to comply the installer has to jump through the hoops regarding installation rules (from wago) and even then only mf at much reduced rating. i.e. they can not be used mf on a 32 A circuit (the 32A connectors can only be used up to 20A)!

To me it looks like their aim was to get a mf logo on their box rather than come up with a user friendly/workable solution.