What Do You Do When Customer Wants To Do Some Of The Work Themselves?

[cr0ft]

Hi all.  I'm doing some work for a gent who wants to do more and more of the work himself to save money.  Effectively he wants to lift all flooring and notch joists ready for me to run cabling.  I have no huge problem with this but now he's talking quite honestly about getting me to run fused spurs for heating wiring centre and then him to fit the wiring centre and connect all heating controls himself (controlled work of course).  He's also on about moving cables for ring mains and lights out of heating system joists (good idea of course, but he wants to do all of this himself and just get me to inspect and test it).

When fitting his consumer unit (visited the job with no prior quote) I noticed the earthing wasn't up to standard and will be returning to fit new earthing cables to meet current regs for TN-C-S.  He is now trying to avoid this appointment by asking me to just submit test figures for the system with the earthing that isn't up to standard.

Any of you been in a position like this and how did you handle it?  I'm not really happy supporting someone to do work that they shouldn't be doing to be honest.  No issues with someone lifting flooring etc to save money but this goes much further than that imo.

 

[binky]

Move on to next customer and stop wasting your time. Issue cert for CU (legal requiremnet unfortunately) with comments to the effect that customer has opted to do earthing himself, you must limit your legal liability - ideally get him to sign it. As for rest, touch with barge pole - he wants your professional status on his mickey mouse handiwork.

 

[ProDave]

I take a different view.

If the customer wants to do the horrible bit, lifting floorboards (particularly chipboard panels) and do the donkey work of drilling (not notching) the joists, then that's fine by me.

Yes I do less work and get paid less, but the work I do is the nicer part of the job, the actual electrical bit.

But I wouldn't fit cables for him to connect up.  If he wants to pull some cables for his own use before the boards go back down, that's his business but I would not have any part in that.

And I only certify the work I do.

 

[apprentice87]

Hi There,

You are in a difficult position.. What i would do, is to say that; "I am a member of a professional trade body and i am not allowed by law to sign for ANYTHING that i did not physically do myself, it is illegal, and i would be struck off"

Explain that the reason that you have to do the lot, is that how do you know that a cble installed by someone else has not been damaged during installation. Explain that "I know that this might sound pedantic, but let me ask you this" Go on to ask him about minimum bending radius for different sorts of cable, the rules for how often they are supported and the reason for this, that cables can be damaged if they come into contact with certain materials, etc etc. Just say that there is more to it than you think, and if there was a fire, the insurance company would inspect teh lot trying to find an excuse not to pay. His house would be gone and he would have no insurance, and you would be struck off.

Tell him that, the other thing he can do, is to do as much of the wiring as he wants, and then you will come and finish the rest,, but that you will ONLY be able to issue a cert for the bits YOU did. Explain that what he is asking, is a bit like going to a garage to get an MOT cert, an expect them to issue it because; "i have checked it myself, and it is all ok"

john

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

From your terminology i wonder if you know what you are doing.

Cables should not be run in joist notches under the floor.

The CU should not have been changed without the correct earthing inplace , it should have been done fi rst.

There is nothing wrong in providing a Fsu or any switch/connector for others to connect to. Its a normal procedure.

.

 

[Apache]

Hi There, You are in a difficult position.. What i would do, is to say that; "I am a member of a professional trade body and i am not allowed by law to sign for ANYTHING that i did not physically do myself, it is illegal, and i would be struck off"

As a home-owner I'd ask how electricians use an apprentice

Explain that the reason that you have to do the lot, is that how do you know that a cble installed by someone else has not been damaged during installation.

Is that not why you test the installation?

is a bit like going to a garage to get an MOT cert, an expect them to issue it because; "i have checked it myself, and it is all ok" john

Yes, but if my car fails its MOT, I can take it home, mend the problem and re-submit the car for a free re-test!

I'm one of those annoying home-owners who [you all know this] likes to do stuff myself. When we moved in it was for necessity, but I also enjoy it. I do actually own a proper installation tester!

When we got our consumer unit changed I ran the cabling outside to my shed, did all the electrics in the shed and left the sparky to test and make the connections in the consumer unit and the shed unit. I left the face-plates off and he visually inspected and tested the work. I can see that if the wiring was hidden he may have been less keen, but even if the world's greatest spark installs things other influences can affect that (eg plasterers, final fix builder, home-owners).

I'm sure it is the crap DIYers work you get bothered with and those of us who try bloody hard, do a good job and even do the appropriate testing you never even know it's a DIY job when you come along a few years later.

 

[wooly]

; "I am a member of a professional trade body and i am not allowed by law to sign for ANYTHING that i did not physically do myself, it is illegal, and i would be struck off""

john[/quote

There's no problem legally signing other people's work off.......until it goes wrong. But most faults should be picked up with testing anyway

 

[cr0ft]

From your terminology i wonder if you know what you are doing. Cables should not be run in joist notches under the floor. The CU should not have been changed without the correct earthing inplace , it should have been done fi rst. There is nothing wrong in providing a Fsu or any switch/connector for others to connect to. Its a normal procedure. .

Hi

Notch was a typo, apologies for this.  I am well aware of the requirement to run cables at least 50mm below the flooring i.e. through drilled holes in the centre of joists.  Your reply is a bit abrupt tbh and gives off an impression of superiority which I am sure you didn't mean to convey.  As I mentioned, the job was quoted for blind as it was 30 miles away from where I live.  The customer assured me earthing was all fine.  On getting there and realising it wasn't, I either wasted a day earning nothing or changed the consumer unit for a more modern unit.  System was left in no worse condition than when I got there and repeat appointment has been booked to upgrade earthing as he wants to lift all floorboards etc to save money.

I appreciate what you are saying, but life isn't always perfect.  I'm also quite aware that providing a FSU for others to connect to is a normal procedure, I do it frequently for boiler installers etc.

All this said, thanks for the many helpful replies on this subject.

 

[ParkySparky]

Can you not notch joists aslong as covered with an earthed metal plate? The last joist closest to the wall often has to be notched as the cables cannot feed round the back and up the wall???

Not that I personally do much if any domestic work, I hate the bloody places!!!!!

 

[Doc Hudson]

Yes, but if my car fails its MOT, I can take it home, mend the problem and re-submit the car for a free re-test!

As a brief observation, I understand that now once a vehicle leaves the testing station any subsequent test has to be paid for. A free second tests is only permissible if the vehicle remains at the test station between first and second tests. i.e. the testing garage does the remedial repairs to pass the MOT.

Hi
.  As I mentioned, the job was quoted for blind as it was 30 miles away from where I live.  The customer assured me earthing was all fine.  On getting there and realising it wasn't, I either wasted a day earning nothing or changed the consumer unit for a more modern unit.  System was left in no worse condition than when I got there and repeat appointment has been booked to upgrade earthing as he wants to lift all floorboards etc to save money.

The problem here stems from your "quoting blind" process and not allowing enough on your price for the almost certain omissions that the customer has made in their assessment of the work needed. With any job that has obvious complications it is better to establish in writing the boundaries of exactly what you are doing and not doing and how much it will cost. As the wiring regulations clearly state that earthing and bonding must be verified prior to any alterations and you are the one supposedly guiding the customer, it would have been more sensible to initially price the job to include costs for bonding work, then deduct it from the bill if it was not needed. so the customer still only pays what they expected or less, but not an increase in what they were quoted. Life may not be perfect and every job has it pluses and minuses, but I do think you have created a lot of problems for yourself through poor project management on this job.

Doc H.

 

[philbas]

; "I am a member of a professional trade body and i am not allowed by law to sign for ANYTHING that i did not physically do myself, it is illegal, and i would be struck off""

john[/quote

There's no problem legally signing other people's work off.......until it goes wrong. But most faults should be picked up with testing anyway

could you point us to the LAW that makes it  Illegal

 

[binky]

it's the stuff you can't see and doesn't show under testing that's the issue.

 

[Andy™]

As a brief observation, I understand that now once a vehicle leaves the testing station any subsequent test has to be paid for. A free second tests is only permissible if the vehicle remains at the test station between first and second tests. i.e. the testing garage does the remedial repairs to pass the MOT.
Doc H.

iirc partial retest is still free providing its taken back within 10 days. otherwise a full test required

 

[Apache]

As a brief observation, I understand that now once a vehicle leaves the testing station any subsequent test has to be paid for. A free second tests is only permissible if the vehicle remains at the test station between first and second tests. i.e. the testing garage does the remedial repairs to pass the MOT.

Bringing your vehicle back to the test centre Before the end of the next working dayYou won’t have to pay again if the vehicle is brought back to the same test centre before the end of the next working day for a partial retest on one or more of the following items only:

• bonnet
• bootlid
• brake pedal antislip
• direction indicators
• doors
• dropsides
• fuel filler cap
• hazard warning
• horn
• lamps (excluding headlamp aim)
• loading door
• mirrors
• rear reflectors
• registration plates
• seatbelts (excluding body around anchorage points)
• seats
• sharp edges or projections
• steering wheel
• tailboard
• tailgate
• towbars (excluding body around anchorage points)
• vehicle identification number (VIN)
• windscreen and glass
• windscreen wipers
• windscreen washers
• wheels and tyres (excluding motorbikes and motorbikes with sidecar) Bringing your vehicle back to the test centre Before the end of the next working dayYou won’t have to pay again if the vehicle is brought back to the same test centre before the end of the next working day for a partial retest on one or more of the following items only:
  
• bonnet
• bootlid
• brake pedal antislip
• direction indicators
• doors
• dropsides
• fuel filler cap
• hazard warning
• horn
• lamps (excluding headlamp aim)
• loading door
• mirrors
• rear reflectors
• registration plates
• seatbelts (excluding body around anchorage points)
• seats
• sharp edges or projections
• steering wheel
• tailboard
• tailgate
• towbars (excluding body around anchorage points)
• vehicle identification number (VIN)
• windscreen and glass
• windscreen wipers
• windscreen washers
• wheels and tyres (excluding motorbikes and motorbikes with sidecar)

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Hi
Notch was a typo, apologies for this.  I am well aware of the requirement to run cables at least 50mm below the flooring i.e. through drilled holes in the centre of joists.  Your reply is a bit abrupt tbh and gives off an impression of superiority which I am sure you didn't mean to convey.  As I mentioned, the job was quoted for blind as it was 30 miles away from where I live.  The customer assured me earthing was all fine.  On getting there and realising it wasn't, I either wasted a day earning nothing or changed the consumer unit for a more modern unit.  System was left in no worse condition than when I got there and repeat appointment has been booked to upgrade earthing as he wants to lift all floorboards etc to save money.

I appreciate what you are saying, but life isn't always perfect.  I'm also quite aware that providing a FSU for others to connect to is a normal procedure, I do it frequently for boiler installers etc.

All this said, thanks for the many helpful replies on this subject.

I am away and using my phone so can't be arsed to pad out. As others have now mentioned you have learnt a lesson we all have ,that the customer is never right. Also not to liven up anything that isn't correct (due to bonding etc) and leave as the customer thinks 'I turn the switch and it works, why should I pay more'.

Parkysparky, metal plates could be used on existing notches but we are not meant to notch, but to drill the centre axis of beams where possible.

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Philbas,

You say about pointing you to the law.. I was merely suggesting that this was something to say to the customer..

Having said that, if you DO sign that you personally carried out work, and then there is a subsequent fault and harm is caused, never mind if you did the work or not, you will probably find yourself guilty of a common law offence, namely negligence. You will be in BIG doo doo.

I am sick of explaining, that no, the regs are not law, but they may be relied upon to CREATE offences, just like the highway code. This is why they have written in the front of them that compliance with them may be used in a court as evidence that various laws HAVE been complied with.

There is no law that i am aware of that specifically says you have to drive on the left, but you go and have a head on collision, go to court and say "Ah, but i have not broken any law" you will not get far, as the highway CODE, yes CODE, NOT law, CREATES offences....

john

 

[cr0ft]

Thanks for the comments about quoting blind.  On reflection this is a fair point.  I did make it clear to the customer though that any issues like earthing would need to be resolved.  He is going to pay for the earthing to be upgraded as he recognises he gave me duff info on this.  I think once this is done I will give the certificate and leave him to it to be honest.

Thanks for all the info, good to hear how other people would have handled the situation.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Yes, but if my car fails its MOT, I can take it home, mend the problem and re-submit the car for a free re-test!

iirc partial retest is still free providing its taken back within 10 days. otherwise a full test required

Bringing your vehicle back to the test centerBefore the end of the next working day

You won’t have to pay again if the vehicle is brought back to the same test centre before the end of the next working day for a partial retest on one or more of the following items only:

As you say for a minority of minor items a free re-test is available {unsure why you duplicated items in your list}, this of course assumes you have time, the parts to fix it yourself and can get it back to the garage in time for them to re-test within a day. However as a general rule covering all MOT remedial work, the vehicle should stay at the MOT test station and be re-tested within 10 days for free partial test, Otherwise a retest fee, partial or full will be due. Hence the reason for my earlier comment. IIRC the re-test fees and durations were a bit more discretionary by the MOT garage in the days of handwritten non-computerised MOT records. From here http://www.mottesting.org.uk/mot-retest-information-fail.html  guidance as follows;

How to Get a Free MOT Retest Your re-test will only be free if the vehicle is left with the original MOT testing station for repair and then a partial re-test is carried out within 10 working days of the original MOT test.

So if you bring your car in to your testing station for an MOT and it fails on item(s) that are not in the list above – in the blue box – and you take the vehicle away and either fix it yourself or get another garage to fix it you will need to bring it back for a partial re-test within 10 working days to get the partial re-test fee which is half the full test fee. To see a list of MOT charges - Click Here >>

Either way, very few electricians offer free remedial testing for any customers even if the customer does the work themselves within a day. As it is the electrician driving to the customer, not the customer bringing their property to the electrician for further testing. Not really sure the MOT test or its fees have much relevance as an analogy to this particular thread, as the bottom line in this case is that the original work was under quoted and not properly assessed prior to commencement. As such the OP should have either; walked away, renegotiated or carried any loss of profit. 

Doc H.