what do you have to do to get a decent jail sentence?

[phil d]

I don't know about everyone else but the current standard of justice amazes me! Last week 2 teenagers (they were over 18) were in court for beating a dog so badly that it had to be put to sleep,I won't go into the details but they were given probation,despite the fact the injuries were terrible and in the video,yes they actually video'd it,one can clearly be heard saying "lets see if we can make it scream any more".There was a national outcry and after receiving threats they are being given police protection! In another case a driver killed 2 people and was given a 4 year sentence!Given the way things work he'll actually do 2 years,a friend of ours had her nephew killed and another relative seriously injured in a crash last year,the guy who caused it was given a pathetic 8 year sentence.there are lots of similar cases out there,they are always saying on tv programmes that "you can get 14 years for causing death by dangerous driving", just how many people would you have to kill to get the full stretch,a coachload,or just one member of an important family? I don't blame the police,merely the magistrates and judges.You may recall the recent case of P C Dave Phillips,this officer was killed as he tried to deploy a stopstick in a bid to stop a stolen vehicle that was being driven dangerously around the Wirral,Dave was stood on a grass verge in the middle of a dual carriageway,the young piece of scum then mounted the grass verge and aimed the car straight at PC Phillips who suffered a torn aorta and died almost instantly.The youth then sped off and after burning his clothes he went into hiding,in court he claimed he didn't mean to kill Dave!He left the scene because he was frightened and wanted a cuddle off his mum!

He'd smoked cannabis since the age of 6,had a very long police record and only a few weeks before this incident he'd been involved in another chase in a stolen car,in this case luckily no one was injured and he collided with a wall and a telephone pole,he was let off with community work!

He was charged with murdering P C Phillips,which he denied and was found guilty of manslaughter and given 18 years,ok that is a fairly long sentence but,he has shown no remorse for what he's done,plus how can you deliberately drive a vehicle weighing nearly 2 tonnes at someone at high speed yet claim you didn't mean to kill them?

Dave left a wife and 2 young daughters,they are the ones serving the life sentence,she'll never cuddle her husband again,the kids will never do the things that they should do with their dad,he'll never walk them down the aisle,or see his grandchildren in later years.No some piece of scum destroyed more than one life that night,but because he gave a sob story he got off with the more severe charge of murder,no doubt he'll not do anywhere near the full term and will then be back out causing more mayhem. What the hell is wrong with this country when you can get a greater punishment for something relatively trivial than you can for killing someone?

 

[Sharpend]

the problem isn't the justice system for that is just that a system. What is missing is the element of fear, these lunatics have nothing to fear for doing wrong, so I'd say it's a strong case for capital punishment to be brought back or alternatively national service then we'll see how quick crime is diminished. 

 

[phil d]

You're  right there,I heard a couple of lads talking and one said there was a warrant out on him,the other lad asked if he was  bothered and he replied not really  it's like  but lins inside and I could do with the rest 

 

[binky]

Murder is causing death by pre-planning, so mounting a kerb and running a PC down isn't murder because it wasn't preplanned. However deliberately torturing a dog to death is another story.

You will notice crimes against property, and theft carry bigger sentences than crimes against life. This is a deliberate attempt to discourage people from stealing from anyone with money (and we have all probably thought about it) so I suppose it mostly works cos we don't all go around thieving things despite the temptation. But what price a life???

 

[Essex1]

I think time and time again prison has been proven not to work. I notice in the example given there are two different 'types' of crime. The first is a crime by which someone has set out (and actually enjoyed) hurting and killing someone or something. This is the type of crime where I feel a prison sentence must be served. And a lengthy one at that. Release should only be when a parole board of experts feel that these people are no longer a risk. 

The second is a crime in which a person has not set out to commit a crime. Maybe someone we would have a drink with. Enjoy their company. But has made a very silly decision and has ended in the worst possible way. 

Should these two two types of crimes and people be treated the same way?  With the same jail time?  I do not think so. The man that maybe over took at the wrong time and lost control and killed someone may be a father himself. He may be a stand up bloke in every other walk of life. But one mistake which has ended in tragic circumstances means his family will suffer and his children will be without a father. Jail time in this instance makes no sense. Yes a punishment must happen but I would rather see a lengthy term of community service. 

 

[phil d]

I think time and time again prison has been proven not to work. I notice in the example given there are two different 'types' of crime. The first is a crime by which someone has set out (and actually enjoyed) hurting and killing someone or something. This is the type of crime where I feel a prison sentence must be served. And a lengthy one at that. Release should only be when a parole board of experts feel that these people are no longer a risk. 

The second is a crime in which a person has not set out to commit a crime. Maybe someone we would have a drink with. Enjoy their company. But has made a very silly decision and has ended in the worst possible way. 

Should these two two types of crimes and people be treated the same way?  With the same jail time?  I do not think so. The man that maybe over took at the wrong time and lost control and killed someone may be a father himself. He may be a stand up bloke in every other walk of life. But one mistake which has ended in tragic circumstances means his family will suffer and his children will be without a father. Jail time in this instance makes no sense. Yes a punishment must happen but I would rather see a lengthy term of community service. 

He didn't make any mistakes he deliberately drove a two tonne  truck at the officer.how can he say he didn't mean to kill him what did he think would happen. ? Nobody is that thick

 

[Sharpend]

Sorry to say but morally you may be correct, but I have two views. 

1) a crime is a crime, you can not measure a crime, the dictionary definition is the same for all. A wrong doing is a wrong doing why should one be any lesser value than the other?

2) the whole justice system is unbalanced and this unbalancing is a result of 'clever' solicitors using technicalities to get some one off which are then jumped upon by other solicitors which make these the normal defence rendering the justice system disabled. 

The only way to resolve the problems is to cut out the grey areas and go back to black or white options, did x commit a crime ? Yes or no? 

Accidents are non existent in most cases, most happen as a result of a wrong decision. This is not to say that innocent people do not get caught up in these wrong decisions situations of course they do, but any deliberate action that results in an 'accident' for example the guy who knocked the policeman down as given above, is not an accident, he made a decision to take the car off the road to direct it at an innocent person, he knows that he is not supposed to do it and therefore it's a wrong decision- wrong behaviour why should he be given a lesser charge? It's not like something failed on the vehicle and he couldn't control it so it veered off the road. 

 

[Essex1]

He didn't make any mistakes he deliberately drove a two tonne  truck at the officer.how can he say he didn't mean to kill him what did he think would happen. ? Nobody is that thick

I was not commenting specifically mate. Rather a generalisation as I do not know the cases well enough. 

 

[binky]

He didn't make any mistakes he deliberately drove a two tonne  truck at the officer.how can he say he didn't mean to kill him what did he think would happen. ? Nobody is that thick

he was trying to avoid the 'stinger; the unfortunate PC had put across the road. If you are running from the law, and pumping adrenalin, stupid decisions will always happen. I'm not condonning the idiots actions in any size shape or form, but people are mostly the result of their upbringing, which is a whole argument in its own right.

 

[Sharpend]

you may correct in your final statement binky, so maybe the removal of discipline from schools was the first step of a slippery slope, added to that the thatcher policy of every one for themselves, and so on we arrive at where we are today, although I suspect this isn't the end. 

So it needs a firming up of discipline, reimplementation of morals? Whether this be a government initiative or parent initiative or combined is irrelevant. The Achilles heel is that government is too money orientated to notice its own wrong doings let alone those of the people. Parents are generally over worked in trying to keep up or too demoralised and on the dole. 

So where shall it start? 

Oh the rewards of capitalism!!!

 

[Andy™]

claim to be NIC when youre not. that should get you locked away for a while

 

[Sharpend]

claim to be NIC when youre not. that should get you locked away for a while

You're not taking this seriously are you

 

[Evans Electric]

We all hear of these pansy sentences and I feel for those involved who were hoping for justice. 

Theres a case in my area of a young bloke , given a fast car by his well off parents , the part obviously thinks he is above the law .

He drives along the A34  dual carriageway by me ,  speed limit  40MPH ...at 60MPH ...he crosses the traffic lights and people tend to cross over there by the shops ,   the two sisters that rent a flat from my cousin are crossing , one is pregnant ........instead of braking he sounds the horn  and mows them down .

One sister killed , the other injured , baby saved.  

He got nine years but not sure about  what he actually serves.

Trouble with people is ...some are idiots ...some never learn  . Theres little respect for police & some even turn nasty against ambulance & Fire crews these days.

The cane was still used when I was at school ...tough inner city school , boys only , we marched , we stood to attention , we stood at ease.

What I realise , looking back , was that as snotty nosed 1st years we were told what crimes were punishable by the cane ...and being 12 yr olds , we ignored that .     So a couple of warnings to shut up , say , and suddenly you were out front , arm outstretched and got a stinging whack across the fingers .    After a couple of these and seeing others receive the same or worse,  by the time we got to 2nd year , if "Sir"  said "Quiet now you 'orrible lot "    ....silence would descend .   

However , kids in the lower streams   never seemed to learn that  and were still taking punishment in the 4th yr ...basically because they were stupid I guess.    Many descended into crime I'm afraid .

But the deterrant worked on us ,  very few were caned in the 2nd, 3rd & 4th years ....a degree of freedom was allowed then because "Sir" knew if talking , say , was getting out of hand , he just banged the register down & silence would reign .    We'd pushed our luck too far ,  we knew it , he knew it and thats all he had to do .........we were becoming grown -ups I guess.

 

[Sharpend]

Oh doesn't that sound right. Unfortunately we've become a nation of 'we know our rights' the do gooders have done good in ruining all the discipline :C

 

[Doc Hudson]

I have just browsed this thread and I have to say I am surprised that Kerching hasn't made a one line reply yet to the question "what do you have to do to get a decent jail sentence?"  I was expecting something like, 'ask Rolf or Mr Glitter or some equivalent person'.

Doc H.         

 

[Evans Electric]

Give him time Doc .           Might be some depraved suggestion involving RR :maria:

 

[binky]

OK, school discipline is non-existent now? so how come the schools aren't having riots every day???

Physical discipline has been removed, why, because it is actually physical abuse. My school used to use leather straps, one teacher liked to add coins to his to make it heavier. He fractured a boys wrist before it was removed from him. Did we respect 'sir' no, we hated him and plotted many forms of revenge. Schools 'police' by coercion rather than fear these days. It works better in most cases.

The real problem is the decline in morals (goes hand in hand in the decline in religion and rise in the god of mammon). As much as i dislike organised religion, it did install some moral education. That and the decline in parenting skills in some quarters, on the radio yesterday was a reoprt about how children from ethnic minorities are outperforming the indigenous white children and how terrible it was. So why is this happening, simple, the immigrant community actually value education, where as many of our own people think appaering on X factor is more important. There is a lack of respect for the teaching profession, police, or any other form of authority. This is in part due to having beaten the parents at school and the numerous abuses of power, kiddy fiddling, fraud etc etc we are all very familiar with from the good old days of rule by fear. Even in those days, there were still plenty of idiots who killed, maimed, and were plain damn stupid.

 

[phil d]

I don,t agree with the banning of corporal punishment in schools.although there should have been a way of seeing it was carried out properly (I was a victim of abuse at school remember) however a lot of these kids only act up when they can get away with it,a friend of ours has a son who is an absolute animal at times,he's been thrown out of many schools for fighting with other pupils and attacking teachers,he abuses his parents,he made allegations to social services that his dad had beaten him up(he hadn't) social services advised him of his rights and sent his parents on a parenting course,he abuses his younger brother and sister and they are terrified of him,he's 13btw! He got involved with some other idiots and started smoking cannabis and drinking and ended up in hospital where it took 4 police officers to restrain him,his parents are at their wits end.Incidentally I've noticed one very intersting thing about this lad,he won't give anyone lip if he thinks they may hit him back!In short he's playing the system.There's a kid in our street,he's about 7,he does what he wants,goes in peoples gardens,kicks footballs at cars and effs and blinds at everyone,his dad is a scroat who's been in and out of "butlins" numerous times and thinks his son should be allowed to do as he pleases,incidentally he never plays on his own front.I'm very much afraid that there are a great many kids today who know that there is nothing you can do to them and they do as they please,consequently when they grow up they allow their offspring to do the same,there is a lot wrong with this country today and we need to start putting it right,and I firmly believe that doing away with "soft" jails would be a good start,years ago prisoners were made to work,they didn't need a gym to keep fit and they went to sleep at the end of a day,and were glad of the rest,not sat in a cell playing X box or watching tv,Take a few of these so called tough guys onto the moor and get them breaking rocks for 10 hours a day then see how they feel,I guarantee they wouldn't want to offend again in a hurry.

 

[Sharpend]

 I'm with you on this Phil, I'm not suggesting that kids should be beat for the sake of beating them, but they need to have a knowing of when they are overstepping the line, unfortunately schools and coercion may work for some but as is said the one cap doesn't fit all, so there have to be other ways of dealing with the unruly. If they don't have a fear then what stops them if their own conscious doesn't? 

 

[Evans Electric]

I don,t agree with the banning of corporal punishment in schools.although there should have been a way of seeing it was carried out properly (I was a victim of abuse at school remember) however a lot of these kids only act up when they can get away with it,a friend of ours has a son who is an absolute animal at times,he's been thrown out of many schools for fighting with other pupils and attacking teachers,he abuses his parents,he made allegations to social services that his dad had beaten him up(he hadn't) social services advised him of his rights and sent his parents on a parenting course,he abuses his younger brother and sister and they are terrified of him,he's 13btw! He got involved with some other idiots and started smoking cannabis and drinking and ended up in hospital where it took 4 police officers to restrain him,his parents are at their wits end.Incidentally I've noticed one very intersting thing about this lad,he won't give anyone lip if he thinks they may hit him back!In short he's playing the system.There's a kid in our street,he's about 7,he does what he wants,goes in peoples gardens,kicks footballs at cars and effs and blinds at everyone,his dad is a scroat who's been in and out of "butlins" numerous times and thinks his son should be allowed to do as he pleases,incidentally he never plays on his own front.I'm very much afraid that there are a great many kids today who know that there is nothing you can do to them and they do as they please,consequently when they grow up they allow their offspring to do the same,there is a lot wrong with this country today and we need to start putting it right,and I firmly believe that doing away with "soft" jails would be a good start,years ago prisoners were made to work,they didn't need a gym to keep fit and they went to sleep at the end of a day,and were glad of the rest,not sat in a cell playing X box or watching tv,Take a few of these so called tough guys onto the moor and get them breaking rocks for 10 hours a day then see how they feel,I guarantee they wouldn't want to offend again in a hurry.

Sounds like a typical bully .  I despair of the non existing parenting skills  of the parents of these scroats.