What exactly can an 'domestic installer' do?

[green-hornet]

i did a 5day course Blushing im not feeling the love here in my defense i did have quite abit of experience before hand.

I do not think any regular on this forum would condemn you for that.

The main reason the part p and domestic installer does not work is the fact that people with very limited knowledge could go on a short course and then set themselves up as a domestic installer.

This flies in the face of all electricians who have had to do all the theory and the practical, who have a better understanding of faults and the causes who because they are not on the part p register are prevented from signing off their own work.

I only joined the scheme because I was told I could not rewire a house if I was not on the scheme 4 years later I wish we would have all stuck to our guns and said stuff it!

 

[steptoe]

ive worked with some "proper sparks" on some jobs too and a lot of em have a total disreguard for the regs. bonding? what bonding,safe zone? pah what safe zone.it works both ways imo.

Originally Posted by dan. View Post

i did a 5day course undefined im not feeling the love here

in my defense i did have quite abit of experience before hand.

a lot of myths have surronded bonding for many years, maybe your idea of bonding was on BS recommendations, and his/hers was on knowledge of what was actually needed.?

how many people on here thinks bonding bathroom radiators was required under 16th.?

prob gonna be a good split if they dont cheat and look up the regs,

in response to both points,

I dont know if Im classed as a proper spark or not, (legally notwithstanding)

but at times (quite a few in fact) I have total disregard for the regs,(see my signature),

but I am always able to in some way prove that my work is safe to EAW

which is an act, (ie LEGAL)someone will fill in the details in a mo.

BS7671 is only a guide, and good it is too, but not to be followed aimlessly, thats where they deadness comes in, well it says this and it says that, so I dont have to think for myself........

if you are willing to look, & listen, then the learn will come,

remember, you can never be taught, you have to learn.

 

[dan.]

i know the regs are for guidence and own judgement should be used in some installtions but i ive seen sparks doin some real dodgy stuff.no bonding on lead mains water and gas pipes in an old terrance with copper throughout is askin for trouble in my book.

im not tryin to start an argument just pointing out that there are bad sparks which ever route they took to become one.

 

[steptoe]

i know the regs are for guidence and own judgement should be used in some installtions but i ive seen sparks doin some real dodgy stuff.no bonding on lead mains water and gas pipes in an old terrance with copper throughout is askin for trouble in my book.im not tryin to start an argument just pointing out that there are bad sparks which ever route they took to become one.

I would NEVER bond a lead pipe,

I will note it on my cert and advise customer they need to upgrade,

its not my job to cover the plumbers/gasmans backside cos the client hasnt upgraded their services.

I will however leave my 10mm nearby so whoever upgrades can connest if they wish.

that is where experience comes in, where your responsibility ends and someone elses starts. its down to you to make some one upgrade their pipework, its not only bad practice but also can be very dangerous to bond to lead.

 

[Andy™]

just remember if you do bond to lead, customer will probably be on the phone in a few weeks saying the clamp crushed the pipe and its flooded the house

 

[dan.]

lead upto stoptap copper in the rest of the house

 

[steptoe]

lead upto stoptap copper in the rest of the house

then its NOT lead, its copper.

you need to differentiate between the two.

before the stoptap is like before the cutout/meter, nothing to do with you so it doesnt matter what is there, its what is after that matters.

my point exactly as to 5week wonders.

sorry.

 

[dan.]

still needs bondin

 

[steptoe]

still needs bondin

copper needs bonding,

lead doesnt.

make your point clear.

 

[dan.]

copper pipe after the lead needs bonding, because the lead could introduce a potential difference to earth. i think most people on here would know what i meant.

 

[steptoe]

copper pipe after the lead needs bonding, because the lead could introduce a potential difference to earth. i think most people on here would know what i meant.

well Im waiting for the comments,

as for my ealier comments, I think you have proved the point about 5week wonders,

know it all without the experience, I dont mean that in a bad way, just that you said the water and gas were in lead, then changed to say they were in copper after the point of utilisation, the only bit we are concerned with.

experience lacking, but mouth NOT.

anyhows, Im off for a beer now, no doubt you will go on while Im off, just remember, I have forgot more bu11 sh1tt1ng than you can think about.

when you can get a resonably good excuse thought up, its probably one Ive used myself.

 

[dan.]

i never changed to say they was in copper if my post is read properly it says the mains water pipe is lead and the house is in copper you assumed i meant the pipework was in lead.that doesnt make me inexperienced just means i maybe didnt explain the installation properly.and my course was 6 days not 5 weeks lmao

 

[jl-heating]

one thing i do agree with which i think most others will too.

part p is a sham but its here so lets make the most of it,

if i was at college for 4 years to trade and then someone came along after a week and was working along side me i would be miffed to, of that i think we all agree.

i think dan will admit like me he has limited experience but again like me the reason he is on the forum is that he wants to learn and learn from the more experienced guys on here.

i think i learn something on here every day just by reading through the diferent posts every night,

so come on approved guys give us DI`s some slack .. you never know we might just make good sparkies 1 day .

 

[golfpaul]

Interesting replies.

I'd never have thought that someone doing a 5 day course is allowed to rewire someones house etc, crazy!

 

[jl-heating]

scarey m8. lol. just wish the general public knew the risks they really have no idea how lapse the trade is.

see a nice van all stickered up niceic on the side and they think ahhh lovely just the man .

 

[green-hornet]

one thing i do agree with which i think most others will too.part p is a sham but its here so lets make the most of it,

if i was at college for 4 years to trade and then someone came along after a week and was working along side me i would be miffed to, of that i think we all agree.

i think dan will admit like me he has limited experience but again like me the reason he is on the forum is that he wants to learn and learn from the more experienced guys on here.

i think i learn something on here every day just by reading through the diferent posts every night,

so come on approved guys give us DI`s some slack .. you never know we might just make good sparkies 1 day .

I am almost 50 and I still learn new tricks.

I will never argue one opinion over another for the simple fact that like all proffessions you get good and bad.

I would expect that some of the 5 week wonders are really good at their job, and certainly an improvement on bob the builder.

However I have seen cu's in sheds from a TT supply installed with no earth rods, when questioned they did not even know the dangers.

These problems are always covered during normal training but not on a 5 week course.

A simple question could sort the men from the boys here.

Questions.

You have just rewired a house with earthing arrangements set out as PME.

On completion you find that when tested the Ze is 0.46.

What do you now do?

What reasons could be given for such a reading?

What fundemental mistake did you do when you started the rewire?

The questions would imply there is a fault, but I would like to know where the fault occurred and why.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Interesting replies.I'd never have thought that someone doing a 5 day course is allowed to rewire someones house etc, crazy!

Hello golfpaul, looks like you have poked a big stick in a wasps nest here:O:^O:^O:^O

anyway.. welcome M8!Guiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness Drink

Just to put a few things into perspective.

Prior to January 1st 2005

1/ Anybody could do anything electrically in a Domestic property that they chose, whether for DIY or as a business for commercial gain.

2/ It would only be the supply company who could refuse to connect a supply or disconnect a supply because they felt it posed a serious danger to others.

3/ So a milkman with a bit of DIY knowledge could deliver his milk in the morning then pop to B&Q/WICKES/HOMEBASE/FOCUS etc.. buy some electrical gear then go and install a new CU and rewire the property all perfectly legally!

4/ Good guidance such as BS7671 would suggest he should test and provide a certificate for his work as per the example in the regs... But if he chose not to .. all is good no grounds for prosecution of fines!

Since January 1st 2005 (implementation of part P building regs)

a/ Just as with building an extension where planning permission is needed, certain types of electrical work now also need to proved to comply with building regs.

b/ All work including new CU, New circuits, Wiring in kitchens, Wiring in Bathrooms, Outside wiring, Central heating wiring, etc.. Should be notified and tested to prove compliance.

c/ A DIY person can still do work but they should apply to the LABC for approval & testing & signing of the work.

d/ A qualified electrician.. (a person with relevant City&Guilds) can do work test & certify but get LABC to confirm compliance with building regs.

e/ An electrician who is a member of one of the government approved scheme's can self certify and sign off their work as compliant.

f/ If one of the three options above are not followed prosecution can be enforced on the homeowner or the person undertaking the work. (I thinks its a

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

scarey m8. lol. just wish the general public knew the risks they really have no idea how lapse the trade is.see a nice van all stickered up niceic on the side and they think ahhh lovely just the man .

spose thats just the same as seeing a CORGI/GASSAFE van all stickered up and thinking ahhh just the man. ?:| :|

 

[steptoe]

I am almost 50 and I still learn new tricks.I will never argue one opinion over another for the simple fact that like all proffessions you get good and bad.

I would expect that some of the 5 week wonders are really good at their job, and certainly an improvement on bob the builder.

However I have seen cu's in sheds from a TT supply installed with no earth rods, when questioned they did not even know the dangers.

These problems are always covered during normal training but not on a 5 week course.

A simple question could sort the men from the boys here.

Questions.

You have just rewired a house with earthing arrangements set out as PME.

On completion you find that when tested the Ze is 0.46.

What do you now do?

What reasons could be given for such a reading?

What fundemental mistake did you do when you started the rewire?

The questions would imply there is a fault, but I would like to know where the fault occurred and why.

good point GH

your post says dan that the spark refused to bond lead, which is proper, later you changed it to the house was copper/ not lead.

get your facts right before your excuses, you are starting to sound more and mopre like a bad 5 week wonder, which i dearly hope you are not by being here on this forum.

 

[dougal]

I believe the difference between a good DI and a bad DI comes down to attitude.

The "I have done the course and I know all" 's (i agree that they are a danger to themselves and others.)

and the "I have done the course and I still have a lot to learn"

I am one of the latter.

I use this forum as a learning tool as well as searching for good books to expand my knowledge.

My original plan was to become a sparkys mate to learn with experience but no one would take me seriously. I was too old to do an apprenticeship scheme so the route I took was the DI one. I do appreciate that I have a mountain of stuff to learn.

this is a difficult trade to get into if you have not gone through the apprenticeship route