What exactly is this ?

[Evans Electric]

i am grateful that our system does not even look like changing from the status quo. you want to do electrical work. do an apprenticeship. we do have restricted licenses which can be of a concern sometimes.regarding the olympics, it is the home nation thing. we did well at the sydney olympics and i think greece excelled at the athens olympics with 6 medals

. i thought you guys did great. bout time the rest of the nation took a bit of ticker from your cricketers.:worship

With you on that one , Bruce .

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In reality and condoned by the government , the colleges and Electrical Consumer protection schemes are taking fees from guys who are trying to re-train often after losing their jobs . Some think that becoming a Sparky or Plumber will open up the floodgates to fantastic riches and then reality hits .

Believe it or not there is a 4 day course they call "Part P" which claims to train someone in Domestic Electrical work. This seemed to come about with the recession and the introduction of the government's " Competent Person Scheme"

There is quite a division over here where some Sparks do domestic work only , some only do Industrial work, some only do Commercial work and some do everything . All depends on their training.

Is it the same in Australia, Bruce?

 

[jopo]

Ive been doing my job for 30 years and still learning how electricity works. if you understand this you then understand WHY we have a P.E.N. Why we need adequate circuit protection.

Why the lighting at the local pub trips out my rcd but no one else's in the street.

WHY we are actually carrying out a fault loop test. The reality even apprentices finishing there time dont understand concepts taught at trade school fully. It takes time before you go "oh my god" that is what it means when people say blah blah blah. circuit protection, polarity testing, correct circuit connection FLZ testing is the same in commercial, industrial and domestic.

Im flabbergasted how someone can do a 4 day course and actually understand why there testing there job.

There is draft papers out there on classifying electricians. I dont believe it is getting much airtime but the fact it is out there suggest that in Ten years it could well be implemented. that would be the beginning of the end or the dumbing down of our trade.

 

[Evans Electric]

It all seemed to be sorted here years ago.

You could go the JIB route who monitor an apprentice's progress and had a grading system for operatives.

Qualifications were usually via City & Guilds A, B or C and further if you were a smart ass.

As an old phart I left school at 15 so did a 6 year apprenticeship ...THEN you started to learn when you're out there on your own and still learning now .

OK by age 18 or 19 you are becoming useful or on some firms , being used as cheap labour chasing conduit and boxes into brickwork , but 4 days is beyond my comprehension .

Interesting to learn how its done in Australia though .

I notice you mention PEN , do you have different supply systems there as we do , or is the main supply always the same ?

Our supply systems are :-

Industrial........3phN+E

Domestic supplies can be :-

Single phase supply LN no earth.

Single phase supply LN + seperate Earth

Single phase supply LN with Earth terminal connected to the N at supply head.

Single phase supply LN with Earth terminal connected to the N at supply head and the N earthed at multiple points along it's route.

PEN systems throughout the installation need Home Office approval .

 

[jopo]

i think you call it TNS. we call it M.E.N where our neutral is grounded to the earth bar at the properties main switchboard. Commercial/industrial 3ph+n. Domestic is single phase 99% of the time. rural properties do use a SWER system for which i have never been exposed too. Note our industrty up North is now being exposed to the terms of TNS, TNC-S and so on

Our apprentices do a 3800 hour apprenticeship. Approx 24 weeks at trade school. This is generally done in 2 week blocks. The balance of time is monitored by what we call a "profiling system" the app's enter their hours daily or weekly onto a server via the WWW. this profiling system encompasses all aspects of the electrical industry. as the employer i then have to certify that there entries are true and correct. For me it is a time consuming episode this profiling as there server is bloody SLOW. However after all my whinging and moaning it is a good system in that if the students are entering there profiling correctly it will identify early on where they are lacking and provide bar and pie charts on where they should be and what skills their lacking..

 

[Evans Electric]

Thats interesting Jopo , I avoided the TN terms to avoid confusion , didn't realise you were familiar with them .

 

[jopo]

Thats interesting Jopo , I avoided the TN terms to avoid confusion , didn't realise you were familiar with them .

No im not familiar with the terminology. I had to read it up when you guys talk about it. Goes in one ear and dissappears out the other about a 1/2 hour later or disolves into the brain matter 1/2 hour later. At the end of the day its only letters. the more the term is used the more i/we will adapt here in Aus.

Your TT system scares me in how it used in some domestic installations. Then i guess it must be mandotary that a RCD is used for ther whole installation. Otherwise you would need to ensure your ground resistance is low enough all year round so the Fault loop is low enough to ensure breaker operation in 0.4 seconds.

 

[steptoe]

i think you call it TNS. we call it M.E.N where our neutral is grounded to the earth bar at the properties main switchboard. Commercial/industrial 3ph+n. Domestic is single phase 99% of the time. rural properties do use a SWER system for which i have never been exposed too. Note our industrty up North is now being exposed to the terms of TNS, TNC-S and so onOur apprentices do a 3800 hour apprenticeship. Approx 24 weeks at trade school. This is generally done in 2 week blocks. The balance of time is monitored by what we call a "profiling system" the app's enter their hours daily or weekly onto a server via the WWW. this profiling system encompasses all aspects of the electrical industry. as the employer i then have to certify that there entries are true and correct. For me it is a time consuming episode this profiling as there server is bloody SLOW. However after all my whinging and moaning it is a good system in that if the students are entering there profiling correctly it will identify early on where they are lacking and provide bar and pie charts on where they should be and what skills their lacking..

that would be TNC-S jopo, terra neutral combined - separate , where the neutral is seperated to an earth at the consumers property,

TNS is separate earth from the sub station, generally in the form of the sheath of the cable being the earth path.

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have a look here jopo , a basic description of earthing in the UK.

 

[Evans Electric]

No im not familiar with the terminology. I had to read it up when you guys talk about it. Goes in one ear and dissappears out the other about a 1/2 hour later or disolves into the brain matter 1/2 hour later. At the end of the day its only letters. the more the term is used the more i/we will adapt here in Aus. Your TT system scares me in how it used in some domestic installations. Then i guess it must be mandotary that a RCD is used for ther whole installation. Otherwise you would need to ensure your ground resistance is low enough all year round so the Fault loop is low enough to ensure breaker operation in 0.4 seconds.

The jobs yours mate , when can you start?

Do you get many , what we call , TT systems ? Can be overheads or underground , just a L+N , customer has to provide their own earth.

Usually rods , often rendered useless by gardeners, builders etc.

 

[jopo]

I have never been exposed to anything other than the MEN type system we employ.

Thanks for the link Steptoe. Too many letters and abbreviations in there.

Our system as a whole is HV reticulation to the step down Tx where the secondary has the star point Neutral is also earthed at the pole for the polemount TX or attached to the earth grid mat around the package sub Tx. from there it is supplied the consumers property as a 3ph +N supply (no earth) or just a L+N(no earth) . It is at the consumers main switchboard where the M.E.N takes place.

i think that is what you call the TNC-S.

Now after writing this i just checked your link to a pic Steptoe. I like that. easy to understand and yes our sytem is a TNCS.

Evan Almighty,

I have never come across anythying other than a TNCS. As mentioned the TT system doesnt sit right with me. Then again you guys use it and no ones dead (i think).

I take it that a RCD is mandatory at the main switchboard for each consumer in GB for the TT system. Correct?

 

[batty]

Still plenty of VOELCB around too on TT systems and some 16th edition boards installed by poorly qualified sparks. Even get water pipes and gas pipes being used as sole earth path with no RCD protection. In England as people don't have to be licensed all sort of rubbish is found and since the part pee its got ten times worse.

 

[Evans Electric]

I have never been exposed to anything other than the MEN type system we employ. Thanks for the link Steptoe. Too many letters and abbreviations in there.

Our system as a whole is HV reticulation to the step down Tx where the secondary has the star point Neutral is also earthed at the pole for the polemount TX or attached to the earth grid mat around the package sub Tx. from there it is supplied the consumers property as a 3ph +N supply (no earth) or just a L+N(no earth) . It is at the consumers main switchboard where the M.E.N takes place.

i think that is what you call the TNC-S.

Now after writing this i just checked your link to a pic Steptoe. I like that. easy to understand and yes our sytem is a TNCS.

Evan Almighty,

I have never come across anythying other than a TNCS. As mentioned the TT system doesnt sit right with me. Then again you guys use it and no ones dead (i think).

I take it that a RCD is mandatory at the main switchboard for each consumer in GB for the TT system. Correct?

Yes it is Jopo . Again it is typical of Britain to have different types of supply , anything to confuse the issue.

For a domestic property the supply network has no remit to supply an earth connection, just a 230V SP feed. Commercially would be 3PhN+E . If the property already has an earth they are supposed to maintain it .

The supply system used to be a nationalised industry . The CEGB generated it and fed it to the regions who were also nationalised, so in Wales it was MANWEB here in the middle it was MEB (Midlands Elect Board) All these are now privately owned , French, German and US companies.

Another major gripe with UK sparks is that none of this lot ever thought to introduce a main isolator after the meter .

This is now "interesting " when old fuseboards are replaced.

The government has ordered all meters to be changed to a "Smart" meter so the industry said " While you're at it , fit an isolating switch in the meter " and the age old problem will be solved.

They ,of course, didn't .

Oh and the names, Deke , Bruce!!