when is it going to be law

[Evans Electric]

I had my say , but then I'm just a front line Sparky ,so they won't be that interested really , will they?

Bit like the ECA Monthly magazine , mine came the other day , and without re-checking, I don't think any reference was made to to an actual Electrician, one that gets his hands dirty and actually gets off his ass on a freezing cold winter's day , goes on to a buiding site and gets stuck in, instead of talking about how it could be done quicker /more efficiently/cheaper etc.

Lot of people with nice suits and cushy jobs smiling from the pages and talking about olympic stadiums.

 

[steptoe]

The other problem is BS7671 is a guide, that has to be one of the biggest jokes going, why the **** isnt it made law ???

because IMHO it leaves too many loopholes as it stands,

there are too many grey areas in 7671 that are not 'right' , in fact, I think there are parts of BS7671 that actually contradict themselves,

perhaps by being written by a load of self-important people that all want their rule included.

I could go into what I would like, but then again, who would ever listen? I'm just like a lot of folks, and even less qualified than most probably, I 'only' have to do stuff that is sometimes [in my mind] dangerous, simply to comply with someone stating that it must comply with 7671 with no deviations.

 

[wozz]

I dont think a BS with a scope as wide as 7671s is ever going to be cut and dry in all areas. I think its about as good as its going to get. Define the scope more and you will end up spending more on books!

 

[professional]

I had my say , but then I'm just a front line Sparky ,so they won't be that interested really , will they? Bit like the ECA Monthly magazine , mine came the other day , and without re-checking, I don't think any reference was made to to an actual Electrician, one that gets his hands dirty and actually gets off his ass on a freezing cold winter's day , goes on to a buiding site and gets stuck in, instead of talking about how it could be done quicker /more efficiently/cheaper etc.

Lot of people with nice suits and cushy jobs smiling from the pages and talking about olympic stadiums.

The ECA couldn`t care less about sole traders - they are deemed an annoyance since many are not VAT registered so are automatically 20% cheaper than the bigger operations (in the domestic market). To counter this they operate the QS system which enables them to charge for an electrician yet only pay for a monkey ....

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:27 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:18 ----------

ah, but what about a private house prof?or next doors?

The EAWR covers all electrical work.

As has been stated many times on many forums, BS7671 is merely a way of complying with a statutory requirement (commonly Part P) However, when you are standing in the dock it will most likely be the EAWR under which charges will be brought.

One VERY important requirement is EXPERIENCE.

Remember it will be up to YOU to prove that you are competent and since H&S have taken you to court, you will have (effectively) been deemed incompetent unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.

So, if you have only done a 5 day course, have no installation or test inspect quals (of any real standing) and no experience, on what basis will you be able to defend yourself? (taking into account that you may already have endangered/injured someone through your own actions/inaction)

Whatever you do, don`t make the mistake of believing that your scam provider will defend you - they will throw you to the wolves to save themselves from any sort of judicial scrutiny. The recent, very tragic, death of Emma Shaw was just one example of many cases of total incompetence - but most instances get buried by the Schemes to enable the myth of higher standards to continue.

 

[gavindrummond]

I think it's about time there is a massive campaign by all the electrical tradesman to take this to court not to get into technical debates of the regs but to simply state how dangerous the effects of tampering with an existing or additional installation of any sort. Nothing is impossible people. If that was the case then why have so many things been proven other wise in this big world. If everyone joined in and supported your fellow tradesman then it may get taken to court and be passed as law. You already have a number of countries that has it passed as law now. Unity is what's needed. United we stand and will be heard. But on your own you will certainly fall. I would really be glad to see someone who we could all trust and believe in lead this for the future of safety.

 

[batty]

Well I think the blame must also be partly shared by the estate agent and the buyer. Estate agent for ignoring such trivial things as wiring. As long as it looks good it's okay. And the buyer for not actually asking the right questions, like insisting on an proper PIR before making the largest purchase of their life.Actually I think surveyors are also to blame, because we all know they know jack about electrics. Why can't surveyors be honest and admit they know nothing about electrics and either employ an electrician to do a PIR as part of the survey, or advise the client to do that?

My previous house, an ex council semi was sold to me as having been "rewired" Well it was rewired as a council job and it still ranks as one of the most shoddy jobs I have ever seen. It was only a 2 bed semi, but it had ONE ring final. That was a joke. There was a double socket in the kitchen and a double socket in the living room on the ring. then a double socket in one bedroom as a spur, and a single socket in the other bedroom as a spur. That was it. One lighting circuit, one cooker circuit, and one immersion heater circuit.

Thankfully I had seen the electrics when I viewed the house, and I knew I was buying the house as a project. It had damp, woodworm, grotty kitchen and grotty bathroom. but it was the right location and was all I could afford so I bought it with my eyes open and don't hold anyone to blame for the state it was in.

Caveat Emptor.

Thing is Dave estate agents are in the business of selling houses they make there money from the commission so no sale no wages. Really they are glorified car salesmen so don't really give a damn about the electrics. On the recent thread I did about the house auction program they thought having a cooker switch above the gas hob was OK and it even had a 13 amp socket on it, no mention of it what so ever unbelievable.

 

[Apache]

So many issues here!

1. It's not an estate agent's fault if you buy a house with dodgy electrics. It is not the bloke who you pay to do a structural survey. It is 100% the buyer. Either pay for a PIR or take the gamble, don't blame people who's fault it isn't.

2. Are you gents really saying you would like BS7671 to be law? If you think this through you couldn't use your skills and experience to deviate as you saw necessary. If your work doesn't comply then you are a criminal. I sometimes think that in life grey areas can be a blessing.

 

[steptoe]

Are you gents really saying you would like BS7671 to be law?

did I say that?

but, what other suggestions do you have to try and prevent the 5WW?

Im thinking along the lines of R16 of EAWR makes them mostly to be trading illegally myself.

 

[wozz]

So many issues here!1. It's not an estate agent's fault if you buy a house with dodgy electrics. It is not the bloke who you pay to do a structural survey. It is 100% the buyer. Either pay for a PIR or take the gamble, don't blame people who's fault it isn't.

2. Are you gents really saying you would like BS7671 to be law? If you think this through you couldn't use your skills and experience to deviate as you saw necessary. If your work doesn't comply then you are a criminal. I sometimes think that in life grey areas can be a blessing.

Havnt read the whole thread and havnt got time at the moment, but agreed nothing to do with estate agent, a PIR isnt the whole story usually the worst horrors are concealed within the fabric under floors ect, thats quite a in depth PIR to pick them faults up, with the permission of the current owners! Its a bit like treating the symptom and not the cause!

Looking at it from another way if you bought a car, the person selling it to you knew brakes would fail the next week through a not easily traceable fault, would you feel the same? or would you be back to where you bought it from to have words?

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Everything at the end of the day comes down to money.....

The cost of implementing something....

Has to be cheaper than the cost of picking up the pieces from NOT implementing something...

i.e. When enough people die and cause a greater burden on the legal & compensation industries...

maybe then it will be worth while to pay a load of government officials to get some statute law passed....

Until then....

its cheaper to keep things as they are...

so ..

WHY PAY MORE FOR NO BENEFIT???????

:|

Anyone thinking it will change has got a long wait....

Make sure you got comfy cushion to sit on while you wait.

:C

 

[steptoe]

Looking at it from another way if you bought a car

the manufacturer gives a cambelt a lifespan of 80,000 miles,

do you change it cos the car has 85,000miles and the previous owner has said its never been done, or keep on driving and hope for the best?

you buy a 35yo house with the original electrics, which are in most instances stated to have a lifespan of 30 years,

do you?

A carry on using them and hope for the best

B change them as they are at the end of their recommended servicable life

 

[Evans Electric]

This gives me the chance to throw in ,(yet again) the following .

Does anyone know of anyone taken to court in the new climate flollowing the introduction of Part P ? ( Other than the original, well publicized two cases)

 

[steptoe]

NO, but Im now starting to think we may have a new case for taking folks to court under.

 

[Evans Electric]

.....under what , Steps ?

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

This gives me the chance to throw in ,(yet again) the following .Does anyone know of anyone taken to court in the new climate flollowing the introduction of Part P ? ( Other than the original, well publicized two cases)

There have been some I think....

cant recall links though!

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 00:55 ---------- Previous post was made at 00:53 ----------

bad day explodeBl;00dy he11...

That was me 10,000th post....................................

what a waste of a good post!!! :red card

:_| :_| :_|

 

[steptoe]

.....under what , Steps ?

fraud,

Im gonna have a good look at this next week, and see if there is anything there,

we all know that 5WW generally advertise themselves as sparks,

the dictionary doesnt seem to agree with that, and EAWR reg16 may have doubts, it may be down to how the scams see it,

and, what they actually deem members to be,

I think that will be the defining point.

can we push the scams to put a definition on the 5WW,,,?

I think we can.

 

[Evans Electric]

Can't you cancel it and come back with No. 10,000 containing some great words of wisdom and knowledge perhaps starting with :-

erm .... " I have a dream ....." or:-

"Ask not what your country can do for you but ...." Or:-

" Never in the field of human conflict has ...." Or :-

" This is one step for a man .... " Or :-

"It has been a Hard Days Night poor Yorick , I knew him you know..." Hey I'm not giving you all my best lines , another 908 and I'll need them myself!!!

 

[septiclecky]

I wanted to start this thread on the subject being when will it become illegal for any non qualified to the correct standard or someone who is not competent to carry out any electrical work????? And what do we have to do to make this happen? Maybe we should construct a massive British only electricians board to campaign this and go on strike until this has been passed for the safety of others. What's your thoughts?

In the words of an old Jjohhny Mathis song "Until the Twelfth of Never and thats a long, long time"

 

[ProDave]

Well here's another example.

I only went to connect a new electric cooker today.

The house had a "new" consumer fitted just 1 year ago. So you would expect it to be alright wouldn't you? well no. There's a 6 way Hager board with just a main switch, 4 MCB's and 1 RCBO. I'd love to talk to the "electrician" who fitted that so he could explain to me how it meets the requirements of 17th edition.

So I fitted the cooker okay. But he wants me to wire in some extra lights. I now have to explain to him how his new CU does not meet the current regs and that I need to alter it for this job (change mcb for rcbo for lighting circuit)

 

[wozz]

the manufacturer gives a cambelt a lifespan of 80,000 miles,do you change it cos the car has 85,000miles and the previous owner has said its never been done, or keep on driving and hope for the best?

you buy a 35yo house with the original electrics, which are in most instances stated to have a lifespan of 30 years,

do you?

A carry on using them and hope for the best

B change them as they are at the end of their recommended servicable life

A better example of what I was getting at would be:

C: the car has done 50k the cambelt change is at 70k so you think your fine, but the previous owner was a diy mechanic and changed it himself ahead of time but didnt think to tell you, belt breaks due to his poor workmanship. Still your fault for buying it?