2391 chief examiners report

[m4tty]

Hi,

Here's the link for the above.

Still a really low pass rate as normal

http://www.cityandguilds.com/documents/ind_construction_electrical/Chief_examiner_report_October_2010_MD.pdf

Thought some of you may be interested

Cheers

Matt

 

[Robojin]

Possibly a reflection of the commercial aspect of training centres, C&G might be advised to adopt a league table approach for 2391, but I dare say that might not go down too well with the centres and it would be cynical to suggest that for commercial reasons candidates are not dissuaded even when it's obvious that they lack the relevant experience to pass 2391

On a positive note at least the 2391 exam acts as a skills filter currently

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Reading that just shows how a large proportion haven't got a clue about basic electrical theory.

Understanding the underpinning principals for the test procedures, Why we do something not just what we do.

Reading & understanding written questions... (which IMHO would also reflect on ability to reach specifications, plans etc..)

etc..

etc..

Sounds like 5DW's coming off the conveyor belt without a clue!

This paragraph speaks volumes:-

It would appear that candidates are still unaware that a working knowledge of Guidance Note 3 and BS 7671:2008 is required to achieve success in this qualification. Many candidates demonstrated significant gaps in both technical and underpinning knowledge of the subject matter. In particular the interpretation of information and test results and the validation process for test results are areas of concern.

When I hear of supposed electricians not wanting to purchase the basic guidance books & regulations to allow them to undertake their work, it is not surprising they also don't know how to read them or find anything in them!!!

And this one..

Many candidates did not display the required knowledge when answering the questions and this would suggest they do not have the necessary knowledge, understanding and experience when entering this qualification.

If you can't grasp these sort of basics IMHO you should NOT be allowed to join ANY scheme at ANY level!!!

Surely this should be a minimum requirement for anyone working alone, unsupervised on an electrical installation where there could be elderly, children, vulnerable persons using the appliances & accessories??

 

[Manator]

Very interesting report, one of the reasons this is published is to help those who wish to take this exam. It provides very usefull information and actually gives you clues as to where the greatest points are deducted from your practical and theory sections.

 

[Larnacaman]

To be honest, i'm totally dismayed...

We have always held an excellent reputation overseas for our trained Engineers and Electricians. I can see that reputation being slowly lost and whittled away.

How the hell has it come down to this sort of level?? Just goes to show that so-called progress isn't always a good thing!!!

 

[PC Electrics]

Some seem to be wearing rose tinted specs!

I was told years ago that the pass rate for 2391 has only ever been around 40 - 50%.

 

[Andy™]

Some candidates are still using 16th Edition terminology such as

 

[Larnacaman]

Totally agree with you Andy, ....Why they need to change definitions, that everyone is aware of and use on a daily basis is a nonsense.

 

[kerching]

I think the rot started when we stopped doing the old 'apprenticeships'

Then we changed 'earth wire' to 'CPC', green sleeve became 'green and yellow striped circuit protective conductor oversheath' then to cap it all we make a colour that was once 'a phase' into a neutral and the colour that was the neutral into a 'phase'.!

Yesy I am getting old, my tolerance is fading......: bad day explode .

my mate rang me this morning, half his sockets had gone off. He put his son [who has finished his apprenticeship AM2 etc etc] on to talk to me; he wanted to know if I had any idea what might be wrong, I told him it was probably 'a fault'....I await a call in the morning :coat

 

[TonyCE]

I thought this was a bit 'picky'

Candidates were unable to identify that a 300 mA BS EN 61008 with 30 mA devices foradditional protection installed downstream would need to be an S type and not a time delay

as this term relates to BS type RCDs only.

So they are saying that you need to use the term S type for BS EN 61008 devices because it is not a BS? What are those two letters at the start of each...

 

[davetheglitz]

We should be encouraged that the exam is still tough and the standards aren't being dropped to get the pass rate up - which is what has happened with most exams.

 

[septiclecky]

We should be encouraged that the exam is still tough and the standards aren't being dropped to get the pass rate up - which is what has happened with most exams.

Agree they should make all the exams tougher, that way we might not get so many dumb questions being asked on here by so called qualified electicians.

 

[professional]

Agree they should make all the exams tougher, that way we might not get so many dumb questions being asked on here by so called qualified electicians.

It must be remembered that the Schemes do NOT refer to unqualified electrical installers as "Electricians" - because they are not......... they are merely "competent persons".

 

[NozSpark]

We should be encouraged that the exam is still tough and the standards aren't being dropped to get the pass rate up - which is what has happened with most exams.

+1

 

[Evans Electric]

Must agree with Andy on the theme of re-naming things and the use of initial letters .

Its as you get older I suppose , but you hear someone waffling on about CPCs , my mate says I think they're on about earth wires ....Ahhh ! Well whats this MET that he wants us to "marshall" them into ......... Earth bar apparently ....Ahhh! But then he wants them installed in "containment" .....oh well..we'll just stick them in some trunking Eh! .

And what s this French stuff they want on the ceilings ..."Luminairs" ... ?? Dunno, I've ordered a load of light fittings now ....!! :C

 

[Andy™]

Dunno, I've ordered a load of light fittings now ....!! :C

i hope you ordered lamps & not bulbs to go with those luminares

 

[kme]

It must be remembered that the Schemes do NOT refer to unqualified electrical installers as "Electricians" - because they are not......... they are merely "competent persons".

Although I do agree with the sentiment behind this; the reality (which seems to be backed up by this report, for the most part) is that they should be "competent persons"; but haven`t even managed to reach the dizzying heights of "merely competent".

Yup - the bit about the 300mA RCD, and the niggle regarding 16th ED terms are, on the face of it, just trifling, petty issues. But where would you draw the line? We have said many times that we like the fact the 2391 is a ***** of an exam - sorts the wheat from the chaff, to a greater or lesser extent. I`m happy to see a low pass mark - perhaps they`ll start policing the levels of "competancy" which these "scammers" are providing?

So they knock a point or two off for calling it a "phase" - that isn`t going to cause you to fail.

Other exams are "what" exams - you need to know what to do, and maybe how to do it.

2391 has always been more of a "why" exam - it is EXPECTED that you already know & understand the what ; you now have to demonstrate that you have a well-grounded knowledge of the reasons things are done the way they are, and can explain that in the appropriate terminology.

I don`t see a problem with the 2391; lets keep it at that level.

The only downside is that we now know that 3 out of 4 "competent people" failed an exam which, as was said earlier, ought to be a pre-requisite to anyone wishing to join a scheme, or call themselves an electrician.

KME

 

[Apache]

To be honest, i'm totally dismayed... We have always held an excellent reputation overseas for our trained Engineers and Electricians. I can see that reputation being slowly lost and whittled away.

How the hell has it come down to this sort of level?? Just goes to show that so-called progress isn't always a good thing!!!

Have you been looking at a different report? The exam has done what it should and sorted the wheat from the chaff. The ones that pass are good, the rest have failed.

I stand by the fact that no exam means anything if everyone passes. What exactly is it testing?

The driving test only has a 45% pass rate!

 

[kme]

Have you been looking at a different report? The exam has done what it should and sorted the wheat from the chaff. The ones that pass are good, the rest have failed.I stand by the fact that no exam means anything if everyone passes. What exactly is it testing?

The driving test only has a 45% pass rate!

And THAT is too high, considering a lot of the current road using *&!

 

[Larnacaman]

Have you been looking at a different report? The exam has done what it should and sorted the wheat from the chaff. The ones that pass are good, the rest have failed.I stand by the fact that no exam means anything if everyone passes. What exactly is it testing?

The driving test only has a 45% pass rate!

Perhaps i should of made myself more clear, as to what i was actually thinking at the time i wrote that post.

During my training days we had to be, ...let's say pretty dedicated to our work and learning. If we slacked off too much, or became more interested in boozing and goosing, then you wouldn't last too long in your work-place, you'd be out on your ear...lol!!!

As far as i remember, your job security relied on you passing your course exams. (my company also set it's own pass level) Now, during the whole time that i attended the companies own in-house trade school, i can only ever remember 2 maybe 3 failing those C&G, BTEC, HNC, HND exams!!!

Not because they were easy, they were far from being an easy ride, ...any of them. But because the training was dammed GOOD!!! And the students put there mind into what they were being taught, both in the practical and theory side of things.

There was no such thing as an HND being equivalent to the first or second year of a degree course either as far an FoMoCo was conserned. I had to do the Full 4 year honors sandwich degree course from start to finish, and a further full time year to convert it. All this while watching old pals live a life of Riley and earning 3 to 4 times if not more, to what i was taking home and living on.

So YES those C&G level results are weeding out those that maybe shouldn't be there, either because they haven't put enough time and energy into it, or the level is just too high for them!! ...OR is it, that today's trainee electricians just aren't getting the required level of training or experience that's needed to pass that final exam???

Anyway, ...I hope that gives a clearer understanding of my previous posting.