A few questions on wiring practices

[Sharpend]

What you are not getting is the key difference between personal attack, and a disagreement.

On properly run moderated forums, one allows unlimited technical disagreement, but zero personal attacks. I could give you examples but it would be a waste of effort because it is really obvious to anyone who can read.

well when you can show me where I have personally attacked you the person, not your technical argument then I shall apologise as I do not know you so that would be wrong. However from your technical arguments it is clear and proven that the technical bit is lacking or should I say is not relevant to the electrical installation regulations which are not written by said electricians on here but are what we have to work too, I would therefore suggest that we may have a much better understanding of the requirements than yourself. 
 

and to follow up your second comment, in order to have a technical disagreement then you have to both be on the same page of the technical standards to which you are talking about- clearly this is not the case here with your limited and incorrect knowledge. So I guess I shall technically disagree with you on the basis of the technical arguments you propose to put forward. 
 

now how that can be misinterpreted by anyone reading? 

 

[UNG]

The level of personal abuse here, levelled at somebody who expressed personal views etc but didn't attack anyone else here, is impressive.

As someone involved in running certain online sites for years, I hope the mods here are suitably proud.

Yes, I can fully see that, but why then do you spend any time helping people on an internet forum to start with?

People should get a life, and participate only if they want to help somebody. Not moan that by answering questions they are losing money not getting work. I guess all the electricians here are silently hoping that they will get jobs by half answering questions. But that won't work unless they advertise their locations.

Oh another thing, re use of social media to get business. Something I know quite a lot about, semi-professionally. Be polite and helpful. For every 1 posting here there are 1000 reading and most of those will make a quiet note to themselves to never professionally engage anyone here with the attitude shown. Electricians already have a pretty bad reputation in the attitude department. Even worse than builders. Why? I am not sure but in many areas they can print their own money, and they are lazy on the jobs they take on. A lot of them are dishonest by asserting certain regulatory requirements, which is easy to do even with "professional" customers because the regs are so damn complicated. I'd say 100% of electricians who worked on my business premises in 20 years were dishonest re regs.

Re making money from forum posts, there is a forum I know on which one trade guy was making 50k/year (conservative estimate; that was just the jobs I knew about from people I knew who used him). High margin work, too. You would think he would be polite as hell, wouldn't you? Easy money, 15 mins a day on a forum to get 50k. No, he kept beating up the admins! Eventually his wheels came right off and ... they banned him. 50k p.a. down the drain. Years later he is still bitter as hell. And still doesn't get it.

What you are not getting is the key difference between personal attack, and a disagreement.

On properly run moderated forums, one allows unlimited technical disagreement, but zero personal attacks. I could give you examples but it would be a waste of effort because it is really obvious to anyone who can read.

Anyway, I have clearly exhausted the willingness of the electricians here to help somebody out, before they can get some £££ off me. BFN and good luck.

The internet forums have a name for your type they are called Trolls I have enlarged the font so it might get through to you

There has plenty of advice given that you seem unable to absorb, contact the DNO isn't being obstructive they are best placed to advise on new supplies and the costs involved, and no doubt you will argue the quoted price because you know better than them but that's your problem not mine or anyone else's on here

From the start you have made defamatory comments about electricians and the electrical industry and appear to be above any of the ever evolving regs that we must abide by, I'm certain you would be straight to court seeking redress if you were injured due to the work of an electrician not meeting the latest regs so why complain when you are told that to complete a job additional work is needed to meet the current regs, is it any wonder that nobody is willing to give you the help you need

You are not the first and will not be the last so don't think you a being singled out for any special treatment and personally if I ever have the pleasure of meeting you professionally I will do what I always do with your type and walk away without even looking at the job

 

[phil d]

There are lots of regs that the DNO work to which are totally different to ours (BS7671) and I've worked with them a fair bit over the years, basically you want to play on their pitch with their ball, so you either play by their rules or not at all. I have a full copy of their regs somewhere on my pc and some of them are rather odd. for instance, we have to install 25 mm tails for a 100A cutout, yet last year I was on a job and the feeder cable feeding the whole street of houses was only a 16mm 4 core!

I have seen it where they won't fit supplies because someone has attached something to the backboard in the meter cabinet that doesn't belong to the DNO, or meter company, then again I've seen it where there's been a small CU attached to the backboard and they ignored it. I  was working on one house and the supply cable, an old PILCSWA was badly corroded, I thought it unsafe, the chap from the DNO who came out didn't like it either, but the jointers said it was fine, so they left it.

As others have said, they work to their own rules, regarding ducts however there is a nationally laid down color code for these, this is to prevent someone cutting into something they shouldn't do, imagine running a cable inside a length of blue plastic water main, a year later the water board come along, see it and thinking it's their pipe they put a hacksaw through it!

here is the colour code for anyone who may not have seen it.

ColourUse

Black Domestic mains electric cable, low voltage

 Red High voltage electric cable

Yellow Service and mains gas cable (ducting is perforated to allow for gas venting)

Blue Water pipes installed at least 750mm below surface

Green Broadband, telephone and non-motorway CCTV cables

Grey   BT or telecommunications cables

Purple  Motorway service cables for speed cameras, traffic cameras, emergency phones etc

Orange   Street lighting and traffic signaling cables (i.e. traffic lights)

 

[peterh337]

In case someone comes across this thread one day:

Today I bumped into some UK Power Networks guys and asked them. With a description of the job (posted above), they reckoned

- cost should be about 2k

- they need a cabinet for the 3 fuses and meter and a piece of plywood in it to screw these items to

- they don't care about the house wiring, and said almost no house meets the latest regs anyway unless it's a new build

- they might (not likely but possible) use the existing 8cm pipe which is 30cm down in concrete (not the 45cm regulation depth) because they use their own 5cm pipe anyway and they will push that inside the 8cm one; the guy I spoke to would have just done that

- they don't need to know the house loading; I just tell them what I want and if I said I want 45kW total they will just fit three 80A fuses and don't care what it is for

 

[kerching]

regarding ducts however there is a nationally laid down color code for these, this is to prevent someone cutting into something they sh

Not up here it ain't   RED is the new BLACK

 

[Sharpend]

In case someone comes across this thread one day:

Today I bumped into some UK Power Networks guys and asked them. With a description of the job (posted above), they reckoned

- cost should be about 2k

- they need a cabinet for the 3 fuses and meter and a piece of plywood in it to screw these items to

- they don't care about the house wiring, and said almost no house meets the latest regs anyway unless it's a new build

- they might (not likely but possible) use the existing 8cm pipe which is 30cm down in concrete (not the 45cm regulation depth) because they use their own 5cm pipe anyway and they will push that inside the 8cm one; the guy I spoke to would have just done that

- they don't need to know the house loading; I just tell them what I want and if I said I want 45kW total they will just fit three 80A fuses and don't care what it is for

I’m pleased you got the answers you were after, only one question were these the street worker guys or the actual office guys that generate the job and the costing? 

 

[Murdoch]

I’m pleased you got the answers you were after, only one question were these the street worker guys or the actual office guys that generate the job and the costing? 

at those prices I suspect they were bidding for work on the side ...

 

[peterh337]

How can you get a connection to a cable in the street and a 3ph meter installed "on the side"?

Actually you probably could. The billing is exactly the same and works purely on what the meter readings are. I had 3ph in my last house and the pricing was identical to 1ph.

 

[Sharpend]

You don’t, the cable and meter are spear are entities. 

 

[peterh337]

" the cable and meter are spear are entities. "

That's nonsensical English.

 

[Sharpend]

Sorry predictive text getting carried away! 
 

both are separate entities. i.e not done by same group of people. 

 

[apprentice87]

Ok...

First off.. ALL the DNO is interested in are; 1, What size supply do you need, and 2, Are you installing any apparatus that they will consider will effect other consumers.

So, they will ask you to fill in a form giving all details of what will be installed, the KVA for each item, how long it will be running, the times of operation, how many stop starts an hour, method of starting. You will say that all this is not relevant, which it most likely is not, but this is what makes it all difficult..

I just told them that their form was not really applicable and could i write my own explanation giving the same information. They said i would have to get an electrical engineer, but were more than happy when i wrote my letter and said that it gave them more than enough information..

Someone came out and measured how far it was from the road to where the supply was needed..

YOU NEED TO APPOINT A SUPPLIER AND GET AN "MPAN" NUMBER.. Until they have this they will NOT install the supply

They supplied a meter box..

They supplied 25 metres of four inch diameter twin wall ducting..

I dug trench and installed everything and backfilled the trench..

Someone comes along and digs the pavement up..

Next day the cable jointers come along and install the supply. They could not give a lettuced about anything, all they care about is going home. They tried to install the wrong size cable [too small] and i had to make them go and get hte proper stuff...

They stuff the cable through the duct, connect it up and clear off..

Next day, another bod comes along, and fills in the hole..

Day after that, yet another bod comes along and tarmacs it..

Next thing the meter installer turns up. IF THERE IS AN EXISTING INSTALLATION THEY MIGHT WANT TO SEE A CERT FOR IT. Your best bet is to just install an isolator and nothing else and let them connect the meter to that..

So, at the end of the day, so long as they are presented with a hole in the ground and a duct to stuff the cable in at around the right depth, no worries. As you have already installed the duct you might ask them if they can supply suitable ducting and they will assume you have used it..

THERE MUST BE A DRAW ROPE IN THE DUCT TO PULL THE CABLE THROUGH WITH. If there is not, they will walk away..

So, what was the cost for them to dig the hole in the street, supply 25 odd meters of service cable, 25 metres of 4" duct and a meter box, do the install, backfill and re-tarmac the pavement????

About £1200 plus vat about 10 years ago.. Stupidly cheap..

I did a supply for someone else. The run was less, but they had to shut and cross a road. They wanted about 5 or 6 thousand, but when the people said that they did not have that much said, hmm, ok.. three thousand then!!!!

The DNO workmanship is lettuced and all they care about is going home.. The supply cable [second one mind you] was about 2 feet two short so they went and got a few feet more and did TWO joints in the same hole and they also forgot to do the terminals up in the cut out..

Yes, the tarriff is exactly the same as my house single phase supply..

john...

 

[peterh337]

Interesting; thanks. Confirms my other info.

You were without power for a few days?

At which point do they cut off the old 1ph supply? They could leave it connected until the last moment, but not really if they are to repair the road in several stages afterwards. Do they cut it off at the cable in the street, or further down?

The server on this forum replaces the c**p word with "lettuced"

 

[apprentice87]

I still have both supplies..

The one to the house is the old PILC of a size apparently equivalent to 16mm and the other one, the new one to my shed, [it is jointed to the main about 5 feet away] is 3 x 35mm CNE..

Confuses the meter readers a bit as at one stage they would not believe that i had TWO meters to be read..

I could have has the single phase one removed and fed the house from the shed and saved one standing charge if i wanted to i suppose..

If they DID cut off your single phase supply they would cut and pot end the cable at the street end i would imagine..

The reason that they want the correct ducts and the like is that they informed me in writing that the new service cable etc formed an extention to their network and so that [although it would never happen with a 35mm supply] that say the next door neighbours wanted a supply to their new shed, in theory the DNO could connect theirs to mine..

john..

 

[peterh337]

Two meters... hilarious!

If they connected your neighbour's house to your feed, presumably they wouldn't do the joint within your property boundary? And one would fully expect them to use the 100% correct duct etc outside that boundary.

 

[apprentice87]

No, they made it quite clear that "my" cable was to treated as an extension to their network and was their property to use as they liked and specifically mentioned taking other supplies off it.. This might well have just been what they say to everyone though, "just in case" as it were.

There was nothing that said i HAD to use a duct mind you, they are just as happy to lay cables direct in the ground provided YOU have provided suitable material to bed the cable in.

I said that part of it would have to go in a duct for "engineering reasons" and what duct should i use?? They gave me a length. I said it would be even better if i could put the entire run of cable in a duct.. They loved this idea and gave me the 25 metres of duct.. They love the idea as it is their cable not mine, so if in future it developed a fault, now they can just pull it through and stuff a new length in..

They were more than helpful...

john..

 

[misssweden]

Best piece of advice I will give is read the quote and do exactly as it says! Different DNO’s do things differently, if you’re in any doubt speak to the connection manager. Send them pictures if necessary. 
Also, don’t presume that just because there is a 3ph cable nearby that it will be suitable. If it’s a 3ph service to your neighbour your DNO might not want to do a breech off of it for your supply and they might have to go further back to use a main. As a general rule, the more digging in the highway the higher the cost. 

 

[apprentice87]

Yep!! DEFINITELY do exactly as the DNO say, or they will just walk away, and remember, you will have already paid by this point.. AND having paid, so far as i know, if they do not get to do the job within a reasonable timescale you will forfeit the money..

john..

Locked to prevent being hi-jacked (again)