A "visual" plus inspection....

[Murdoch]

I was asked to review a visual inspection that had been conducted!

"main house power" - Insulation resistance test failed and existing wiring is corroding and would require re-wiring (no values or readings)

So I asked what "test failed" meant, so the customer contacted the other spark and he came back with:

" The insulation resistance test is on all the cable running through your home on the power circuit, it starts at the fuseboard under the stairs and the routes are through the walls and floor joists.

The cable is corroding due to age, like the cable that was disconnected to the socket in the living room and is a fire hazard due to the cables corrode, arc together and catch fire"

I'm none the wiser!

Any thoughts chaps?

 

[Rob.]

Well I guess their first language isn't English.

 

[Evans Electric]

Don't know about that one , but I just noticed that NICEIC  sell a "Visual"   cert pad. 

Also reminds me of being asked by a  local estate agent to quote for void property surveys .

It was eons ago and  I quoted £50   for 8 cts / 3 - 4 bed.   

Their reply I remember well ..."Far too much  , we have a  guy ( also 1st language  not English)  who does them for £11  as long as he gets  any corrective work " 

 

[phil d]

Don't know about that one , but I just noticed that NICEIC  sell a "Visual"   cert pad. 

Also reminds me of being asked by a  local estate agent to quote for void property surveys .

It was eons ago and  I quoted £50   for 8 cts / 3 - 4 bed.   

Their reply I remember well ..."Far too much  , we have a  guy ( also 1st language  not English)  who does them for £11  as long as he gets  any corrective work " 

He's probably the guy off the internet who when asked by a lady how much he'd charge for wiring a cooker as she had no cooker point replied, 'how far away is the nearest socket?'

I wouldn't do visuals as a valid inspection, but saying that there are one or two people I've known in the past who have bought properties 'in need of some modernisation', they've asked me to go round and do an inspection, but when I've got there it isn't worth getting a meter out, you can just tell. A five minute walk around reveals things such as multiple single 'fuseboxes', badly cracked rubber cables, or in one case lead! in that case it's usually, "yep, needs a rewire" followed by, "and you owe me a few beers for nipping over". I only do that for people I've known for ages, and they trust my judgement, I'd never do it for a 'proper job', I.e someone I didn't know.

Saying that I remember a mate's son buying a house, "we're fitting a kitchen on Saturday and he needs a few extra sockets" he told me, it was Thursday teatime. I went round to have a look and then it went really wrong, loads of badly perished rubber cables, one of the very early Wylex 3036 boards, it was a disaster! "when are we doing the rewire then?" I asked, the son replied, "doesn't need one, survey says electrics are fine" and so it did, unfortunately I knew different and so did his dad.

I ended up rewiring it on the weekend, he went to his bank on the Monday morning and had a right row, they'd done him a package, survey and mortgage, not only did he have a written report off me, but he also took a load of the old wiring with him. He told the manager that he'd got a firm of kitchen fitters booked for today (Monday) and had only found out on the Friday that it needed a rewire, so it had to be done as an emergency, to avoid cancelling the kitchen. He ended up getting about two and a half grand for the rewire, another 500 quid for plastering, his survey costs refunded, and something for the inconvenience!

The irony of it was, we all knew each other from site, his dad was a plasterer, I was the spark, and he and one of his other mates did the labouring, I think my labour for the rewire was about £300 (mates rates), he did all the chasing and pulling cables in, his dad got all the fittings off site, his dad did the plastering, so no charge, and they were fitting the kitchen themselves anyway. lol

 

[binky]

Their reply I remember well ..."Far too much  , we have a  guy ( also 1st language  not English)  who does them for £11  as long as he gets  any corrective work " 

 s'funny how he always finds £600 of corrective work...

 

[kerching]

Serious question....

what sort of prices are you finding that people are being quoted for domestic PIRs  ?are they quoting a ,"job price" or doing it per circuit?

just curious 

 

[Murdoch]

I tend to avoid the rush to the bottom .....

1/2 day for a small flat

1 day for house 

are my guide prices, but then the number of cu’s and circuits come to play

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Don't know about that one , but I just noticed that NICEIC  sell a "Visual"   cert pad. 

NICEIC have sold visual pads for many years....

They have their place as in interim check between full inspections, especially as a quick annual check round a rental property... when an EICR is overkill.

But without a valid full EICR no more than 5 years old then a visual on its own means jack-all.. IMHO...

And I can't see how anyone would have any IR test results on a visual...   As it is VISUAL????   :C

As for prices...  

Average domestic property I normally tell customer it is from half-day to a full-days labour,

assuming I can identify what all of the circuits feed and the majority of stuff is accessible and not decorated over preventing opening of accessories etc..

Guinness

 

[Evans Electric]

Serious question....

what sort of prices are you finding that people are being quoted for domestic PIRs  ?are they quoting a ,"job price" or doing it per circuit?

just curious 

Not sure what others are quoting  but usually cheaper than me  when people phone  for a price .     I seem to get more who are selling &  have been asked for a  report . 

Mostly semi detached or terraced  , occasional flat  , I quote £180 - £190  & don't get many.      

Last caller said  she was recommended  to us  but  when quoted said  "Oh sorry  I've been told £40 "     

I certainly can't compete on PAT testing  ... your hourly rate suddenly plummets.   I just do two regular customers  at the same price I've done for years . 

One is 15 items  ,  he can't get anyone daft enough to do that  amount .    I just charge for 2 hrs + travel. He usually wants other stuff doing . 

The other takes 3 days , suits me these days . 

 

[Murdoch]

Not sure what others are quoting  but usually cheaper than me  when people phone  for a price .     I seem to get more who are selling &  have been asked for a  report . 

Mostly semi detached or terraced  , occasional flat  , I quote £180 - £190  & don't get many.      

Last caller said  she was recommended  to us  but  when quoted said  "Oh sorry  I've been told £40 "     

I certainly can't compete on PAT testing  ... your hourly rate suddenly plummets.   I just do two regular customers  at the same price I've done for years . 

One is 15 items  ,  he can't get anyone daft enough to do that  amount .    I just charge for 2 hrs + travel. He usually wants other stuff doing . 

The other takes 3 days , suits me these days . 

On EICR prices, I think people get the idea that a gas inspection is 1 hour maximum, so the electrical inspection should be the same .................

Cripes, 3 days doing PAT testing .................... yawn!

 

[Evans Electric]

Cripes, 3 days doing PAT testing .................... yawn!

Exactly  ,but its a printing firm which has been my best customer .    Remember I'm semi retired now  ,  my knees are totally retired  so its three days in the printers  , I know everyone there  so have a chat ,  more tea , keep plugging away with testing  and think I could be in a  filthy steel works  hauling a 240mm   SWA  through the all the muck , grime , flying red hot metal  , noise  & heat .   

 

[phil d]

On EICR prices, I think people get the idea that a gas inspection is 1 hour maximum, so the electrical inspection should be the same .................

Cripes, 3 days doing PAT testing .................... yawn!

It doesn't help when you get people creating a bad impression, our landlords, a social housing group, sent one of their electricians round to do an EICR, and what an eye opener it was. The young lad came in, took the cover off the board, did a Ze, with all the earths connected! Did a couple of IR tests, a loop test at one socket on each circuit, no R1+R2, didn't remove ANY accessories to check, even though it was obvious that most had been changed, in fact his only comment was, "what's that weird cable (SY) feeding the outside socket, because I've never seen it before".

He was in and out in an hour, I asked him how many he was going to do today and he said 4, two in the morning and 2 in the afternoon, it was only then that I told him I was a spark and it would have taken me a lot longer to do it than him, he said you just get quicker the more you do!

 

[Murdoch]

Serious question....

what sort of prices are you finding that people are being quoted for domestic PIRs  ?are they quoting a ,"job price" or doing it per circuit?

Got an email from a customer today asking about my pricing for an EICR (so I gave my day rate)

He came back to me with OK and told me he had been told to expect £70 to £250 

My rate is towards the upper end and its a 3 story detached house

 

[phil d]

Got an email from a customer today asking about my pricing for an EICR (so I gave my day rate)

He came back to me with OK and told me he had been told to expect £70 to £250 

My rate is towards the upper end and its a 3 story detached house

I cannot understand anyone doing an EICR cheap, or rushing it, I seriously think that some people, especially those who work for someone else have no idea about what it means to sign your name on the certificate. OK, so you're signing it on behalf of the company you work for, but you are the test engineer, if it goes wrong it's you that is going to end up in court, it's you who could go to jail, yes they may take action against your employers if it's found that they didn't check you were capable of doing an inspection, but at the end of the day the buck stops with you!

I've only ever been on the wrong end of an investigation once, and believe me it wasn't pleasant, what had happened was this, we'd done some work on a council property, tested it and done the paperwork, unfortunately the tenant decided to do some work of his own, and received a severe shock! It ended up with a guy from the council, one from the DNO, and a bod from the HSE crawling all over our work, photo's, video, all kinds, we were made to look guilty even before they'd found the problem, thankfully we were exonerated as it was the tenants fault, but it wasn't a nice experience.

 

[Sidewinder]

Now Phil, you are not so far from the truth, you were guilty in the eyes of the law, before conviction.

The burden of proof is reversed in H&S law.

What electrical bods do not realise is that even in domestic works they are fully bound by the requirements of EAWR at all times, even after they leave.

Along with HASAWA.

The QS in the Emma Shaw case IIRC was charged under HASAWA §7, "you are responsible for your acts and or omissions whilst at work" or similar wording.

 

[Sharpend]

Now Phil, you are not so far from the truth, you were guilty in the eyes of the law, before conviction.

The burden of proof is reversed in H&S law.

What electrical bods do not realise is that even in domestic works they are fully bound by the requirements of EAWR at all times, even after they leave.

Along with HASAWA.

The QS in the Emma Shaw case IIRC was charged under HASAWA §7, "you are responsible for your acts and or omissions whilst at work" or similar wording.

How’s that work then? 

You are assumed guilty until they prove you innocent? Let’s hope they’re good at their jobs then. 

 

[Sidewinder]

No you are guilty until you prove your innocence.

 

[Sharpend]

Well that is an interesting concept. 

 

[binky]

No you are guilty until you prove your innocence.

it certainly feels like they work that way.

Out of interest then, if a customer refuses  upgrades / improvements due to lack of funds, how many legs do you have left to stand on under that regime???

 

[Sharpend]

so how are you, can you be responsible after you have left if someone else has interfered with your work? How many sparks would photograph absolutely everything they have done in an installation? What happened in the days before digital photography - or was it a case of including a full set of prints in the price of the job? I can’t say that I’ve ever photographed an entire job maybe some aspects of it for my own record. 

Other than a full photographic library and a correctly completed certificate, how else do you prove your innocence? It will be their word against yours? I.e. a half competent diyer could add an extra socket using the correct cable as it’s sold from the sheds and then imply that it was one that you installed and he had in fact added one elsewhere in the installation?