Adding a socket with no rcd protection

[m4tty]

Hi,

I have been Reading a thread on another well known forum regarding adding extra sockets to a circuit with no rcd protection And not putting them on rcd and one of the top posters said this ...

The householder is under no legal obligation to upgrade the installation to the latest IEE standards, when this issue is often raised with the scheme operators their statement is that the attending electrician should use their skill and judgement and in a balanced arguement explain to the customer the benefits of having the extra protection, so you can either walk away and refuse to do the job on moral monetary grounds or do as the customer requested and you wont be held accountable if anything happens, your choice.

This guy defo knows his stuff and I'm sure few people on here know and talk to him but I just wondered if you could add the socket on without rcd protection as it's no worse than it was before and someone down the pub will do it for them, but were not allowed as it won't comply.

Can the socket be added and note a departure due to client not willing to pay for rcd protection?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts

 

[Robin Spark]

Hi,I have been Reading a thread on another well known forum regarding adding extra sockets to a circuit with no rcd protection And not putting them on rcd and one of the top posters said this ...

The householder is under no legal obligation to upgrade the installation to the latest IEE standards, when this issue is often raised with the scheme operators their statement is that the attending electrician should use their skill and judgement and in a balanced arguement explain to the customer the benefits of having the extra protection, so you can either walk away and refuse to do the job on moral monetary grounds or do as the customer requested and you wont be held accountable if anything happens, your choice.

This guy defo knows his stuff and I'm sure few people on here know and talk to him but I just wondered if you could add the socket on without rcd protection as it's no worse than it was before and someone down the pub will do it for them, but were not allowed as it won't comply.

Can the socket be added and note a departure due to client not willing to pay for rcd protection?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts

That part is right (in bold), otherwise just think of the work we would all have if when the regs changed then all and sundry would be panicking and booking us all to get there wiring upgraded immediately.

However, we all know that work completed in the past that met the regulations at that time does not necessarily need to be upgraded/ replaced now. But any addition or alteration to that installation needs to comply with current regulations.

Therefore i cannot see how you can legitimately add a socket outlet in a domestic property without RCD, unless using metal conduit, SWA, or T&E surface mounted or in trunking.

Or its a cash and run job!

Is an RCD fused spur really too much to ask for at max

 

[spinlondon]

You can't really sign off a certificate stating the work compies with the Regs, if it don't.

Departures are non-compliances which offer the same degree of safety as would be found with compliance.

 

[NozSpark]

,,, but if the DFC (Amd 1) comes in as it's written then you don't have to RCD all your work if it would not increase any existing risk (if I've read it correctly?)....

bear in mind though that Amd 1 ain't the regs yet though!

 

[batty]

The work you do has to comply so you would have to put an RCD socket in simple if they won't pay don't do the work.

 

[green-hornet]

People, people, people, I do not know the otherside the op refers to but he is correct.

Its up to you the individual electricians to make the call, if it was a new circuit then yes it must to comply with regulations and be RCD protected, but if its an additional socket which the addition of does not make the circuit any less safe than before, then cost over safety, over requirement means it is possible within the regulations to provide an extra socket to an existing circuit without RCD protection, however you must as the visiting electrician assess this, and my advise would be to walk away if you suspect that with the addition of this socket without RCD protection the safety of any potential users could be put at risk, ie socket next to the back door( they are going to plug the lawnmower in are they not.

 

[ianmacd]

People, people, people, I do not know the otherside the op refers to but he is correct.Its up to you the individual electricians to make the call, if it was a new circuit then yes it must to comply with regulations and be RCD protected, but if its an additional socket which the addition of does not make the circuit any less safe than before, then cost over safety, over requirement means it is possible within the regulations to provide an extra socket to an existing circuit without RCD protection, however you must as the visiting electrician assess this, and my advise would be to walk away if you suspect that with the addition of this socket without RCD protection the safety of any potential users could be put at risk, ie socket next to the back door( they are going to plug the lawnmower in are they not.

How can you design the addition of a socket outlet such that it doesn't require an RCD to comply with 411.3.3 thats for general use in a dwelling (not using rcd socket either)?

 

[PC Electrics]

How can you design the addition of a socket outlet such that it doesn't require an RCD to comply with 411.3.3 thats for general use in a dwelling (not using rcd socket either)?

I don't believe one can.

I suspect however that the original extract in the OP may have been meant to include the wider consideration of sockets operated by skilled/instructed persons, or labelled for specific uses, in which cases installation without RCDs may be permissable.

 

[jimleen]

You could always muddy the water a bit and label the new socket as fridge/freezer.... or lawnmower! :red card

 

[Lee321]

You could always muddy the water a bit and label the new socket as fridge/freezer.... or lawnmower! :red card

holy moly

 

[Risteard]

Therefore i cannot see how you can legitimately add a socket outlet in a domestic property without RCD, unless using metal conduit, SWA, or T&E surface mounted or in trunking.

If it is for general use then it would still require RCD protection.

 

[NozSpark]

AT the moment RCD or walk, but when Amd 1 comes out??????

 

[binky]

Upstairs circuit, then maybe viable as not going to be used for portable appliances outdoors, but would persuade fitment of RCD is good for customer. Downstairs circuit - RCD circuit and comply with todays regs, or don't do job - simple stand alone RCD next to CU will suffice. Just remember its your name on the ticket.

 

[ianmacd]

OK, so as "todays regs" require the socket to be RCD'd (even upstairs), you would still omit it?

 

[tom1]

i thought sockets need rcd unless cable is not burried or >50, and labled and for fridges etc

 

[ianmacd]

You mean to comply with 411.3.3?