ADS

[Larnacaman]

Get the basics right first, .....Then add your ''save all'' RCD device.

Your showing that you can't see further than than what has been written as a ''Guide''

Few if any Deign Engineers use the Regs for calculation, cable sizing, demand factors and many other areas, are you saying they don't know what there doing, or that they are wrong???

I suppose your another that think, any installation that complied with 15/16th Regs are now unsafe and ''NEED'' upgrading, ...Right??

 

[Sidewinder]

Plumber,

You know what I do LOADS of electrcial work where I completely ignore any information given in BS7671 completely, often on a daily basis.

I always have and always will, that you demand that everyone must comply with every nuance of this guide just shows your ignorance and your lack of grasp of the fundemental engineering principles involved.

I am not going to grace this thread with any more posts as it is obvious that there are some who just have no idea.

 

[Chr!s]

Get the basics right first, .....Then add your ''save all'' RCD device.

Well that would depend upon whether the only of complying with the regulations was by use of a RCD, TT for example. The RCD is not a save nor have i said that it is, in ADS it used in conjunction with other requirements already listed.

Your showing that you can't see further than than what has been written as a ''Guide

Well you obviously know more than all the people involved in producing the IEE wiring regulations, Guide as it may be, its produced by industry members all of whom know there onions in their given fields.

Few if any Deign Engineers use the Regs for calculation, cable sizing, demand factors and many other areas, are you saying they don't know what there doing, or that they are wrong???

Now I'm surprised at that comment, and i totally disagree, they may use manufactures information but the fundamentals are set out in the wiring regulations and most designers will work within the guidance of the regulations.

Maybe you could show a few examples where designers use fundamentals that differ from that of the regulations.

I suppose your another that think, any installation that complied with 15/16th Regs are now unsafe and ''NEED'' upgrading, ...Right??

Unsafe - no Upgrading - i think the new regulations are an improvement on safety and should be implemented when nessersary.

 

[Chr!s]

You know what I do LOADS of electrcial work where I completely ignore any information given in BS7671 completely, often on a daily basis

Thats your choice, if you feel your engineering knowledge will stand up in a court of law thats fine by me.

I always have and always will, that you demand that everyone must comply with every nuance of this guide just shows your ignorance and your lack of grasp of the fundemental engineering principles involved.

Ignorant - not at all

fundemental engineering principle - I understand what i need to know, and when it comes to electrical installation design ill stand toe to toe anytime, ive seen some of your posts.

I am not going to grace this thread with any more posts as it is obvious that there are some who just have no idea

No idea ILMAO.

Some people go on as though they are electrical Gods and are above the intellect of the wiring regs and other guidance, i see enough in the posts of these so called gods that they are not as electrically intellectual as they would like to think.

 

[spinlondon]

Bit confused about some of the posts here.

ADS can be achieved by the use of an RCD.

This is something allowed for and has been for some considerable time by BS7671.

30mA RCDs are accepted as additional protection by BS7671.

What exactly is the problem?

 

[Chr!s]

I can see why you call yourself a plumber I would pass comment but I beg to differ

*goes back to *

I wouldnt pass comment Canoe Boy

Youll find yourself a bit out of your depth in your little canoe

 

[Sidewinder]

Plumber,

I've changed my mind I'll post once more.

That you think that my engineering knowledge will need to stand me up in court if I don't work to BS7671 shows your ignorance.

 

[Chr!s]

I've changed my mind I'll post once more

LOL

That you think that my engineering knowledge will need to stand me up in court if I don't work to BS7671 shows your ignorance.

Well you suggest A RCD is for Additional protection only, please explain to me how your engineering knowledge will get around earth fault protection and ADS in a TT instalation.

 

[Sidewinder]

Plumber,

I have to post again as you have misquoted me.

Please explain exactly where I have stated categorically that an RCD is for additional protection ONLY?

There are several ways I can use my engineering knowledge to "get around" using an RCD as the earth fault protection on a TT system.

Two immediately spring to mind.

Can you provide any?

Also why should I need to utilise BS7671 in all the electrical work that I do, your ignorance is believing that 7671 is the be all and end all of all electrical regulations where it is patently not.

You not understanding this is my point.

BTW I did used to sit on committee at Savoy Hill.

My problem is I post on here late at night normally having worked a very long day and more often than not "fire from the hip" as it were.

I rarely if ever refer to any reference books because they are rarely if ever to hand.

If you have comment to make on my previous posts then please do.

Please don't just make wild insinuations that you feel that I am incompetent by the nature of my previous posts.

 

[spinlondon]

Ahh, an RCD does not provide ADS per se, it is "Additional Protection"

I do not get confused between these areas, IMHO an RCD must not be relied upon for ADS alone.

 

[Chr!s]

Plumber,I have to post again as you have misquoted me.

Please explain exactly where I have stated categorically that an RCD is for additional protection ONLY?

Ahh, an RCD does not provide ADS per se, it is "Additional Protection"

Its quite clear to me.

There are several ways I can use my engineering knowledge to "get around" using an RCD as the earth fault protection on a TT system.Two immediately spring to mind.

Can you provide any?

Several, but how many of those methods will be used in the majority of applications.

I bet your next TT gets an RCD.

Also why should I need to utilise BS7671 in all the electrical work that I do, your ignorance is believing that 7671 is the be all and end all of all electrical regulations where it is patently not.You not understanding this is my point.

I haven't suggested that you do, and i fully understand there's life outside of BS7671, but my posts are regarding ADS and RCDS, people are going off on a tangent and going on about engineering knowledge and other means of compliance.

 

[Sidewinder]

Ahh, an RCD does not provide ADS per se, it is "Additional Protection"I do not get confused between these areas, IMHO an RCD must not be relied upon for ADS alone.

Spin,

Like all good journalists you have quoted out of context!

Quote 1.

Basically I state that an RCD does not provide ADS per se it is additional protection.

Even Plumber agrees with this in that an RCD must be used with what used to be called EEB.

It is the per se bit that seems to be misinterpreted.

I don't read that as a statement that RCD's must only be used for additional protection.

I read that as an RCD must not be relied upon alone for ADS, it is additional protection when the fundemental design requirements for ADS cannot be met.

IMHO Plumber also agrees that an RCD alone does not provide ADS.

Quote 2.

Again all I state is that in my opinion and RCD alone must not be relied upon for ADS.

How is that stating that RCD devices must only be used for additional protection?

IMHO Plumber also agrees that an RCD alone does not provide ADS.

---------- AUTO MERGE Post added at 21:52 ---------- Previous post was at 21:43 ----------

Plumber,

Actually all TT systems I have ever installed have RCD's.

I even use them on TN-C-S & TN-S installs sometimes, in fact I even cascade them on certain works. I fit them on a redundant basis.

Such that I will often install them where perhaps the regs do not require them.

I will never however, install them as a substitute for fundamentally good engineering design.

I have never stated that I don't install them, nor have I stated that they are not ever required.

You are playing at semantics so can I.

There are other means of achieving ADS & compliance on a TT system even compliance with 7671 without the use of RCD's.

These are recognised in the regulations also.

I have never stated that I ignore 7671 in relation to its scope.

My point was that you are blinkered by 7671 and it is merely guidance.

Please remember that it is NOT statutory.

 

[Chr!s]

ADSi (Basic protection by) - Insulation of live parts, or barriers or enclosures.

ii (Fault protection by) - (1)Protective earthing, (2)protective equipotential bonding, (3)automatic disconnection.

(3) Automatic disconnection may be achieved by a Fuse, Circuit Breaker or RCD.

Two areas people seem to get confused with, (1) A RCD may be used for automatic disconnection, and (2) protective equipotential bonding is part of ADS.

My earlier post.

Quote 1.Basically I state that an RCD does not provide ADS per se it is additional protection.

No, it may be used for earth fault protection and to achieve ADS which is different to additional protection.

Even Plumber agrees with this in that an RCD must be used with what used to be called EEB.

An RCD may be use for ADS as per REG 411 providing other requirements are met, ive said this all along?

I don't read that as a statement that RCD's must only be used for additional protection.

Thats how i interpreted it im afraid.

I read that as an RCD must not be relied upon alone for ADS, it is additional protection when the fundemental design requirements for ADS cannot be met

And nor must a fuse or MCB, if a fuse,mcb or rcd are used and the requirements of 411 are met ADS is acheived.

 

[spinlondon]

Regulation 411.3.2.1 indicates to provide ADS, a protective device shall automatically interupt the supply to the line conductor in the event of a fault of negligable impedance between the line conductor and an exposed-conductive-part or a protective conductor in the circuit or equipment within the disconnection time required by Regulation 411.3.2.2, 411.3.2.3 or 411.3.2.4.

Regulation 411.3.2.2 indicates maximum disconnection times for TN and TT systems.

There is a note "Where complince to this regulation is provided by an RCD....."

Regulation 411.3.2.1 makes no mention of EEB, it refers solely to the protective device providing ADS. Also EEB is obviously only required where there are metalic services or exposed-conductive-parts. Are you suggesting that ADS cannot be achieved where these are not present

 

[Manator]

I have just done a fully comliant installation and no RCD in sight.

Healthy debate is always welcome please be as nice as you can, remember we are a friendly if hot headed forum. :innocent :innocent

 

[spinlondon]

Is that similar to a fully compliant installation?

I'm assuming that the installation has no circuits of a special location.

 

[Manator]

yes laptop does not work as well as my pc, and I am sat on a mobile rcd with a flat tyre going down the M6 in the snow.

 

[spinlondon]

Nice, still it could be worse, you could be still awaitng recovery.

 

[Chr!s]

I will never however, install them as a substitute for fundamentally good engineering design.

I dont disagree

There are other means of achieving ADS & compliance on a TT system even compliance with 7671 without the use of RCD's.These are recognised in the regulations also.

Im fully aware of them.

My point was that you are blinkered by 7671 and it is merely guidance.Please remember that it is NOT statutory.

Why, just because i state a RCD may be used for achieving ADS? this means im blinkered.

Im full aware that's its non statutory, i have many standards and guidance documents to which i use, most to fill in the gaps left by generic regulations which require further input.

 

[Chr!s]

Canoeboy

I disagree with one of your statements and think you may be above yourself

Please explain which statement and why