Am i being ripped off?

[europa]

I am having a house renovation done: loft conversion, single-storey side and rear extension and full internal refurb. Currently 3-bed semi in Harrow, NW London.

However, I also asked the contractor to quote for some additional work:

- Cat6/coax cabling

- minor amendments to allow for my wireless (Fibaro) automation system. NB: all that is required for this is neutral at each switch, dimmer/relay modules inserted into deep (45mm) boxes and a bypass installed (between switch and each group of lights) for rooms where loads are too small, as well as relays for the UFH actuators and boiler. And a small wireless sensor stuck to ceiling.

- basic alarm system (which will work with Fibaro wireless sensors)

I've included the full spec below for reference, but what i would like a view on is whether 7.8k+VAT is a fair and reasonable charge for this additional work. NB: standard electrics (most of what is below) are already included in contractor's project price. The contractor insists that 7.8k+vat is only what the electrician is charging them for non-standard work, mainly cat 6 and automation stuff.

Exterior:

lighting : Install 2 x light points / 1 gang switch (front of building) : Install 4 x lighting points (wall side) : Install 3 x patio lighting points (1 gang switch) : Install 1 x weather proof socket : Install 10A cable and isolate in enclosure for future back house

Interior:

Ground floor landing : Install 2 x double socket points : Install 3 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 2 gang switch : Install 1 x optical smoke detector (inter linked)

Middle floor landing : Install 1 x optical smoke detector (inter linked) : Install 2 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 3 gang switch Loft landing : Install 1 x double socket point

Loft Landing Install 2 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 2 gang switch : Install 1 x optical smoke detector (inter linked) 

Lounge : Install 3 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 1 gang switch : Install 5 x double socket points 

Reception Room : Install 3 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 2 gang switch : Install 3 x double socket points : Install 4 x LED shelf lighting (2 either side of fire place)

Extension (Dining and kitchen) : Install 3 x double socket point (island) : Install 2 x double socket points (lower wall) : Install 4 x double socket points (above work surface) : Install 2 x single socket points (below work surface) : Install 10 x LED fire rated down lighters : Install LED strip lighting to underside of kitchen cabinets : Install LED strip lighting to underside of work top at island : Install 3 x pendant lighting : Install 1 x 6mm cooker point/ isolator switch (40A) : Install 1 x extractor point/ 13A fused spur : Install 1 x heat detector (interlinked) : Install 4 gang switch for lighting WC Ground floor : Install 2 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 1 gang switch : Install 1 x extractor fan : Install 1 x electric mirror point 

Utility Room : Install 2 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 1 gang switch : Install 3 x double socket points : Install 1 x boiler point : Install 1 x carbon dioxide detector (inter linked) : Install 1 x under floor manifold point (13A fused spur)

Side Extension Install 4 x double socket points : Install 4 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 1 gang switch Under stairs : Install 15 way 100A split RCD Consumer unit 30Ma : Install 1 x light point/ 1 gang switch : Install 2 x double socket points : Install 1 x booster unit 

1st Floor Rear Bedroom : Install 4 x double socket points : Install 4 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 1 gang switch

Master bedroom : Install 6 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 1 gang switch : Install 4 x double socket points Office : Install 3 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 1 gang switch : Install 4 x double socket points 

Family bathroom : Install 2 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 1 gang switch : Install 1 x extractor fan/ switch : Install 1 x linear light at basin : Install 1 x LED motion switched mirror light fitting Loft Bedroom : Install 3 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 1 gang switch : Install 5 x double socket points Bathroom : Install 1 x extractor fan/ switch : Install 1 x LED motion switched mirror light fitting : Install 1 x linear light at basin : Install 2 x LED fire rated down lighters/ 1 gang switch

Bond gas and water main services : Install 45mm metal back boxes to all switches : Wire in modules at all switches : Wire in a bypass at every group of down lighters controlled by a switched module : Wire in 7 x relays for Zones (under floor heating) : Wire in relay for 2 port heating valve : Install sensors at each room : Test and certify all new electrical works : Install 1 x 13A fused spur outlet for alarm system : Install 3A supply to Alarm system control panel : Install cable to exterior alarm sounder Client to supply : Switch plates : Sockets : Spurs : Extractor fans : Modules, bypasses and relays : Room sensors : Cooker isolators : Down lighters and lamps : LED strip lights : LED mirrors : Basin lighting : Alarm system equipment  

CAT 6 Installation Work : Install 1 x CAT 6 line and wire to RJ45 wall plate (bottom landing) : Install 3 x CAT 6 lines and wire to RJ45 wall plate (lounge) : Install 3 x CAT 6 lines and wire to RJ45 wall plate (extension) : Install 1 x CAT 6 line for intercom : Install 1 x CAT 6 line for access point (1st floor landing) : Install 1 x CAT 6 line for access point (kitchen)

: Install 3 x CAT 6 lines and wire to RJ45 wall plate (1st floor rear bedroom) : Install 4 x CAT 6 lines and wire to RJ45 wall plate (1st Office) : Install 3 x CAT 6 lines and wire to RJ45 wall plate (1st floor Master bedroom) : Install 3 x CAT 6 lines and wire to RJ45 wall plate (Loft bedroom) All CAT 6 cables to be run to under stairs and labeled All CAT 5 cables to be segregated from electrical current carrying cables Intercom to be wired Access points to be wired All CAT 6 points to be wired to RJ45 wall plates All connections to server to be connected by DATA engineer 

 Ariel cable : Install 2 x Ariel points (lounge) : Install 1 x Ariel points (extension) : Install 2 x Ariel points (Master bedroom) : Install 2 x Ariel points (rear 1st floor bedroom) : Install 2 x Ariel points (Office) : Install 2 x Ariel points (Loft bedroom) : Install 1 x 12 way booster kit 

 

[apprentice87]

How far had they progressed with the original work before you changed your mind and wanted the additions??

john..

 

[europa]

They've done no electrical work yet. And it wasn't a change of mind, as they knew it from the start of the project (in early August). But they've waited till now to give me a price and want a decision by Monday! I was aware their project price included standard electrics only, so i expected to pay extra, just not 9.4k extra!

 

[Andy™]

does seem a bit OTT but then it is london

 

[europa]

Contractor just came back to me, with some pricing breakdowns:

Over budget on general electrics £1000 (additional sockets/outside cables/led linear lights, mirror cabinets/additional extractor/etc 

Aerial budget £800 (the aerial company came in more expensive)

Cat 6 budget £2000

Automation budget £3500 (heating and electrics)- this includes manifold and also alarm 

Incidentals £550 (we have to allow for things we cannot see at this stage)

 

[Lurch]

It does sound expensive, but as Andy says it is London.

As always, get 3 quotes. Chances are the bloke you have has no idea about automation/alarms/data etc (he can't even spell aerial so I wouldn't trust him to fit one) and he has over-quoted to either get the job declined or cover his arse if he gets it. I'd be inclined to find someone more familiar with automation/heating controls etc as I have seen this sort of thing before and it ends in tears.

 

[europa]

It does sound expensive, but as Andy says it is London.

As always, get 3 quotes. Chances are the bloke you have has no idea about automation/alarms/data etc (he can't even spell aerial so I wouldn't trust him to fit one) and he has over-quoted to either get the job declined or cover his arse if he gets it. I'd be inclined to find someone more familiar with automation/heating controls etc as I have seen this sort of thing before and it ends in tears.

Yeh, the guy is definitely NOT familiar with this stuff. The automation is very basic, so i don't see how it can cost 3.5k+vat. It is not a wired system, and is typically used in retrofits. The problem i have is that the contractor has me between a rock and a hard place, i.e. they have their own electrician and getting quotations myself is, therefore, difficult. And 2k for just cat6 cables?

Do you guys think its reasonable for me to tell the contractor i am going to get in my own guy to do the cat 6 and automation (alongside their electrician who would just do the standard stuff)? Or would that just get too messy?

 

[Lurch]

Do you guys think its reasonable for me to tell the contractor i am going to get in my own guy to do the cat 6 and automation (alongside their electrician who would just do the standard stuff)? Or would that just get too messy?

Depends on the main contractor and the electrician. I have done it before from both sides, if the electrician isn't familiar with the stuff and is over-pricing it then he doesn't want the work so it's not like you are taking work from him. Best bet is have a word with them both (main contractor and electrician) and see what they say. At the end of the day it is your house so if the builder throws a wobbly and says no then get someone else.

 

[europa]

Depends on the main contractor and the electrician. I have done it before from both sides, if the electrician isn't familiar with the stuff and is over-pricing it then he doesn't want the work so it's not like you are taking work from him. Best bet is have a word with them both (main contractor and electrician) and see what they say. At the end of the day it is your house so if the builder throws a wobbly and says no then get someone else.

OK, so question now is: what do you think is a reasonable price for, 1, the cat 6 and, 2, the automation stuff? 

 

[Lurch]

I wouldn't like to try and guess from up here. London prices are not something I am familiar with so coupled with not being able to see the job/meet the electrician/contractor I could well be way out with a ball park figure.

 

[europa]

I wouldn't like to try and guess from up here. London prices are not something I am familiar with so coupled with not being able to see the job/meet the electrician/contractor I could well be way out with a ball park
 figure.

Fair enough. But, re. London prices, remember this isn't Central London. It's Harrow.

 

[Sharpend]

I'm with lurch on this, it sounds as though the electrician is not experienced in this high end spec requirements and is therefore pricing to lose the work or allow for his lack of knowledge. 

I'd be avoiding and getting a separate spark of my choosing. 

 

[europa]

I've spoken to the automation company and their view is that there's so little work involved in fitting the automation modules - they can actually be retrofitted - that the price should be closer to 300£ rather than 3500£! So i will probably get their guy to do that stuff.

The cat 6 is a bit trickier. Getting someone else in to do that whilst the other electrician is laying electrical cables is a bit complicated. Is 2k+vat too much for this cat6 spec:

Install 1 x CAT 6 line and wire to RJ45 wall plate (bottom landing) : Install 3 x CAT 6 lines and wire to RJ45 wall plate (lounge) : Install 3 x CAT 6 lines and wire to RJ45 wall plate (extension) : Install 1 x CAT 6 line for intercom : Install 1 x CAT 6 line for access point (1st floor landing) : Install 1 x CAT 6 line for access point (kitchen)

: Install 3 x CAT 6 lines and wire to RJ45 wall plate (1st floor rear bedroom) : Install 4 x CAT 6 lines and wire to RJ45 wall plate (1st Office) : Install 3 x CAT 6 lines and wire to RJ45 wall plate (1st floor Master bedroom) : Install 3 x CAT 6 lines and wire to RJ45 wall plate (Loft bedroom) All CAT 6 cables to be run to under stairs and labeled All CAT 5 cables to be segregated from electrical current carrying cables Intercom to be wired Access points to be wired All CAT 6 points to be wired to RJ45 wall plates

 

[Lurch]

23 outlets and no patch panel/cabinet, so obviously no testing/certificate for it.

Probably a bit high but not as outrageous as the other though, I'd expect a full job with cab etc for that price, or thereabouts. Again, ball park/regional differences etc may dictate that price, no idea what equipment he is using either, sometimes data outlets and cable are expensive from some wholesalers. Maybe do a middle ground on this one, get him to install the cables to boxes and then leave the outlets/patch panel for others to fit.

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

Harrow is not really London, its "next door" to Watford. Why not contact a comms / phone company in Watford and get them to quote.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

We are inbetween Harrow & London . Harrow should not  be  priced any different to other towns.

 

[europa]

Thanks, everyone. The builders are doing their usual give-client-a-price-then-chase-him-till-he-agrees routine. Really exhausting, and infuriating since i asked them for cat6/coax pricing almost three months ago! As with most things, i'll try to compromise: i'll take away the automation work (which will save me 3k alone), but agree to the cat6 work providing they install a patch panel and carry out proper testing (as i would anyway expect). If they don't agree, i'll just say i'm getting in someone else and they can just you-know-what. 

 

[DiddyFA]

I would look around for someone to do the Cat 6 stuff. We all hate to see any trades devalued, BUT all you are asking with the Cat 6 is it is run in from each room to under the stairs or whatever. No need to ask for them to even be terminated into faceplates or anything....just marked up as to what they are and where they go. There is no reason why you could not get a separate contractor to take care of all cat 6 and home automation stuff while the build is progressing - Inform your builder of your plans and ensure proper co-operation between your Cat-6 installer and the builder so it can all happen with minimum of fuss. Maybe 1st tell them to forget the Home Automation stuff and just spec that you want deep back box's for each point such as light switches ect....and ask for a revised price which includes simply running in the cat 6 cables with no termination.

 

[gladiatorsparks]

Id personally keep it to one sparks, i say that only to avoid clashes between trades/schedules.  That said, as Diddy mentioned if it can be organized properly they it can work.

I've just finished something similar, automation budget was much less. It was in South London and it was less.

 

[europa]

Id personally keep it to one sparks, i say that only to avoid clashes between trades/schedules.  That said, as Diddy mentioned if it can be organized properly they it can work.

I've just finished something similar, automation budget was much less. It was in South London and it was less.

I decided to bite the bullet in the end and accept their inflated price. Just too much hassle to coordinate others and sign-off would be tricky too.