Bath death

[Andy™]

and have you seen someone do the energy efficiency check for hips ???not worth the paper its written on

the guy i watched didnt even go in the loft !!!!

ive heard stories of them marking the house worse than it is, because they cant see any drilled holes on the external brick, so they assume its got no cavity insulation. and if they do look in the loft, they cant work out how think the insulation really is and mark it as something else

 

[green-hornet]

Well blow me, I have been complaining for ages that one of the main reasons why Part P is a failure is because 80% plus of the population do not even know it exsists.

Then along come Nappit first who ran some local paper adverts, now the NICEIC have recruited some Linda Barker or Baker, apparently she was in a jungle and had to be got out, to promote Part P with a tv campaign.

Maybe the times are a changing as one songwriter put it, oh well time will tell.

 

[Apache]

Inexperienced people should be prevented from buying ANY electrical fittings(electricians etc. should have a registration card that allows them to buy equipment from registered suppliers).

What a load or rubbish! I had written a long slightly heated reply and luckily the work computer crashed!

Any person should be allowed to do what they want in their own home (within reason). Basic swapping a cracked light switch is not hard and could be done by your averagely intelligent 10 year old. Like for like swaps in the main are not hard. Adding a spur to a ring main is not hard. Fitting a loft light is not hard.

I hope it's not this bit of your job you feel requires courses and an apprentiship? Cos this is primary school basic! Where your skill should lie is in the design of the installation, ensuring all cables are protected appropriately, that the earthing is sufficient, that said cable can carry the load within capibilities and is ok in terms of volt drop etc etc.

I know many of you slate DIYers but you notice the bad ones. The good ones work is indestinguishable from a tradesman. You don't know it's DIY. There are bad qualified sparks out there doing shockingly bad work. Never calculate anything. You are not all 'holier than thou'.

The part of your argument I agree with 100% is that you should not be able to do ANY electrical work for payment unless qualified or working under the direction of a qualified spark. I can legally set myself up as a handy man, change accessories, add spurs, fit some down-lighters in a bedroom or sitting room etc! That is wrong.

I can't see any advantage in banning 'limited scope' sparks, but they must be limited to their specific area. Why shouldn't a kitchen fitter do a course that says he can work in a kitchen on the sockets? It's better that than it is done with no training. But it should remain illegal for him to change a CU.

My view would be that it should be possible to carry out what is basically a PIR on DIY work in their own home and issue certificates. It's no different certifying someone else's work to issuing a PIR on a existing installation. If your testing is adequate any problems should show up. I can work on my own gas, legally!

Oh this type of post do make me mad X(

Should I make it illegal to inject your own cow or clip your own cats claws just to protect my own income? How silly does that sound............

:|

 

[green-hornet]

Well you have said a great deal of truths there.

My side of the debate regarding limited scope part p is the fact that some of them (not all) will quote for cu changes or rewires, I do have evidence of this taking place.

This is what worries me, they have a very basic almost DIY training and can get away with a rewire they have no knowledge of.

The fact that they can do this to me is misleading the customer (lying) and not giving the correct notification to building control.

I doubt that anything would ever come to light unless a major fault occured.

Everything has to comply with the 7671 and building regs, so if you know the regs then you are capable of doing the work yourself.

Just do not ask for any customer to pay you and your fine!

The amount of times I have seen 2.5mm installed as a radial with a 32amp mcb, or a short run to a transformer wired in 2.5mm because thats what they had, protected by a 32amp breaker, simple things like no warning labels, not a danger unless tou have a grid switch with 415v between switching.

On the whole there are many DIY jobs that are done correctly, but there are many more that are downright dangerous.

One reason for diy is expense, some electricians are rather expensive, the other reason is they think they can do as good as or better.

I can understand the expense reason but not the I know it all and this is how we do it reason.

On the other hand if they knew as much as you I doubt they would do it wrong Patch:x

 

[batty]

Patch I honestly think electrics should be left to the people who have the test equipment and tools to do the job. Take this for an example. Mr diy wants to change his plastic switches for chrome ones. He trundles down to wickes and buys his switches. Comes home turns of his standard wylex fuse box because thats safest takes the switch off and replaces it with his shiny new one. He has not tested to see if there is a cpc at the switch as he does not have the test meter to do this. But unfortunatly for him the cpc is not connected at the pendant or worse still there is no cpc at all. Anyway Mrs diy gets electricuted because when he pushed the switch back it caught the cable slightly and later it makes that switch live. This could happen under part p. Now you are obviously a competent diyer but unfortunately I would say the majority of diyers are not. They do not have the test equipment to ensure the work they have done is safe. Its bad enough we have bad sparks we do not need bad diyers also.

Batty.

 

[Apache]

Patch I honestly think electrics should be left to the people who have the test equipment and tools to do the job. Take this for an example. Mr diy wants to change his plastic switches for chrome ones. He trundles down to wickes and buys his switches. Comes home turns of his standard wylex fuse box because thats safest takes the switch off and replaces it with his shiny new one. He has not tested to see if there is a cpc at the switch as he does not have the test meter to do this. But unfortunatly for him the cpc is not connected at the pendant or worse still there is no cpc at all. Anyway Mrs diy gets electricuted because when he pushed the switch back it caught the cable slightly and later it makes that switch live. This could happen under part p. Now you are obviously a competent diyer but unfortunately I would say the majority of diyers are not. They do not have the test equipment to ensure the work they have done is safe. Its bad enough we have bad sparks we do not need bad diyers also.Batty.

Batty - I'm not going to argue with you because I admire your ability to bounce all evening! ROTFWL

Still If I want to electrocute my own family in my own home I sort of think I should be able to!

In my mind it's up to the person doing whatever task it is to make sure they know how to do it. You could kill a baby or your granny feeding them undercooked chicken! Someone could fall off a ladder cleaning the guttering. A burning log could fall out of the fire. I do get a little tired of the government wrapping us all in cotton wool.

:|

 

[batty]

Batty - I'm not going to argue with you because I admire your ability to bounce all evening! ROTFWL Still If I want to electrocute my own family in my own home I sort of think I should be able to!

In my mind it's up to the person doing whatever task it is to make sure they know how to do it. You could kill a baby or your granny feeding them undercooked chicken! Someone could fall off a ladder cleaning the guttering. A burning log could fall out of the fire. I do get a little tired of the government wrapping us all in cotton wool.

:|

But its us that have to put things right when you move.

 

[Apache]

But its us that have to put things right when you move.

I had our consumer unit changed within a month of moving in to our house!

No RCD and old rewireable Wylex fuse board.

 

[spinlondon]

The main problem with restricting DIYers is that where they can't afford to employ a registered electrician, they will bodge things by using extension leads and plug adapters.

This has been shown to be the case in New Zealand, where they have recently de-restricted electrical work. The number of deaths and injuries caused by electrocution has fallen dramatically.

Restricting electrical work to registered electricians will not improve safety, in fact it will make it worse. It will however help increase the profits of qualified electricians.

 

[Badger]

and so its should, i didnt go to college, and learn all i have about electrical works/installs, and also paying nic fees just for joe public to do it wrong and not want to spend the money on a job getting it installed correctly, it really PI$$es me of!!!!!

 

[Couleddie]

What a load or rubbish! I had written a long slightly heated reply and luckily the work computer crashed!Any person should be allowed to do what they want in their own home (within reason). Basic swapping a cracked light switch is not hard and could be done by your averagely intelligent 10 year old. Like for like swaps in the main are not hard. Adding a spur to a ring main is not hard. Fitting a loft light is not hard.

I hope it's not this bit of your job you feel requires courses and an apprentiship? Cos this is primary school basic! Where your skill should lie is in the design of the installation, ensuring all cables are protected appropriately, that the earthing is sufficient, that said cable can carry the load within capibilities and is ok in terms of volt drop etc etc.

I know many of you slate DIYers but you notice the bad ones. The good ones work is indestinguishable from a tradesman. You don't know it's DIY. There are bad qualified sparks out there doing shockingly bad work. Never calculate anything. You are not all 'holier than thou'.

The part of your argument I agree with 100% is that you should not be able to do ANY electrical work for payment unless qualified or working under the direction of a qualified spark. I can legally set myself up as a handy man, change accessories, add spurs, fit some down-lighters in a bedroom or sitting room etc! That is wrong.

I can't see any advantage in banning 'limited scope' sparks, but they must be limited to their specific area. Why shouldn't a kitchen fitter do a course that says he can work in a kitchen on the sockets? It's better that than it is done with no training. But it should remain illegal for him to change a CU.

My view would be that it should be possible to carry out what is basically a PIR on DIY work in their own home and issue certificates. It's no different certifying someone else's work to issuing a PIR on a existing installation. If your testing is adequate any problems should show up. I can work on my own gas, legally!

Oh this type of post do make me mad X(

Should I make it illegal to inject your own cow or clip your own cats claws just to protect my own income? How silly does that sound............

:|

These types of post make ME mad.

Primary school basic?? Now you're having a laugh and that's a bit of an insult to electricians. Fitting a spur is hardly basic - chance of interconnections, unsuitability of source for spur. Most DIYers are not going to have testing kits. Nor are they going to know calculations for volt drop, ratings etc. That is total bulls**t about training, where would you draw the line between basic and skilled?

The fact is plenty of people, myself included, CAN carry out electrical work indistinguishable (by sight) from skilled tradesmen. Doesn't mean it's safe, doesn't mean it follows regs. Then you have the ones who THINK they can do the job safely and because the installation works they assume it IS safe when in fact it's not. They sell the house, someone else moves in and there's a problem caused by the poor installation. The new owner is at risk for work done in HIS property BEFORE he moved in, so the arguement of being able to do stuff in your own property is not valid unless you are 100% sure you're going to live there for the rest of your life. Even then you risk creating a dangerous situation.

I wouldn't argue with the statement that there are bad sparks. There's bad in all trades. That's not really the issue though - it's up to regulatory bodies and scam providers to ensure the quality of skills is maintained - whether they do or not is not under our control and is a part of the problem as a whole.

I really do disagree that trades such as joiners and kitchen fitters should be allowed to do basic work. Why? Where do you draw the line as to what they can and cannot do? The amount of **ck-ups that can be caused by someone with a 'little' knowledge is pretty high. I've seen plenty. And someone then has to come in and sort it out. Those would be the people who have been trained, not just in 'primary school' stuff like changing a switch but fault finding etc. More than likely beyond your basic DIYer. Simple way of preventing problems - call someone who knows the whole job FIRST instead of calling them when things go wrong.

Seems when there's a gas pipe needs moving the plumber is called straight in. Of course, gas smells and it can kill. Wait a minute, electricity can kill too. Maybe it's because it doesn't smell until it starts burning your flesh and the contents of your house.

Patch, you ridicule the argument by trying to compare veterinary skills to electrical skills. Personally I wouldn't clip my own cat's claws but if I did it's hardly likely to be a risk to anyone's wellbeing. And if I DID have a cow, which I may if I ever decide to move to bizarro world, i'd call a vet for injections.

 

[a1]

"A little knowledge, can be a dangerous thing!"

 

[Apache]

Primary school basic?? Now you're having a laugh and that's a bit of an insult to electricians. Fitting a spur is hardly basic - chance of interconnections, unsuitability of source for spur. Most DIYers are not going to have testing kits. Nor are they going to know calculations for volt drop, ratings etc. That is total bulls**t about training, where would you draw the line between basic and skilled?

I would tend to say that the scope a DIYer can now legally do work in his own home is about right. Can't see why adding an outside light etc should be wrong?

You never picked up my point about letting someone DIY the work and then you do a PIR and issue a certificate. This is no different to what BCO do and no different to doing a PIR. Would be a source of income for yourself and a legal and safe way of homeowners doing what they felt comfortable with. If they did a crap job then it would fail and they wouldn't get their cert!

They sell the house, someone else moves in and there's a problem caused by the poor installation. The new owner is at risk for work done in HIS property BEFORE he moved in, so the arguement of being able to do stuff in your own property is not valid unless you are 100% sure you're going to live there for the rest of your life. Even then you risk creating a dangerous situation.

If you move into a new house it is the new homeowners responsibility to make sure that the house is safe. If they are in doubt get a PIR before they move in. I wouldn't move house and 'expect' the electrics to be safe. For all I know the kitchen cabinets may be glued to the wall with no more nails and the pressureised hot water cylinder might be about to blow!

For the sake of your self and your loved ones you check these things out! Assume nothing!

I really do disagree that trades such as joiners and kitchen fitters should be allowed to do basic work. Why? Where do you draw the line as to what they can and cannot do? The amount of **ck-ups that can be caused by someone with a 'little' knowledge is pretty high. I've seen plenty. And someone then has to come in and sort it out. Those would be the people who have been trained, not just in 'primary school' stuff like changing a switch but fault finding etc. More than likely beyond your basic DIYer. Simple way of preventing problems - call someone who knows the whole job FIRST instead of calling them when things go wrong.

So you shouldn't be allowed to 'make good' - that needs a plasterer? You shouldn't be allowed to tighten that nut on the shower - you must get a plumber in? Can't attach the new CU to the wall until a joiner has been to attach a wooden batten?

Patch, you ridicule the argument by trying to compare veterinary skills to electrical skills. Personally I wouldn't clip my own cat's claws but if I did it's hardly likely to be a risk to anyone's wellbeing. And if I DID have a cow, which I may if I ever decide to move to bizarro world, i'd call a vet for injections.

Every farmer injects his own cow and you can clip your cats claws if you want to. My point was that people do bits of my job themselves to save money and because they can - I look at other ways that I can earn my money. I don't get bitter and twisted and want to ban people from doing these things. I spend more time sat infornt of a computer looking at data and doing reports than a vet 10 years ago did - because farmers and to a lesser extent pet owners are getting more skilled. They are getting good advice of the internet forums . So I have to look elsewhere for my earnings. No-one should expect to sit on their backside and expect their living to fall on their lap. Go find the work. Make money sorting out other people's messes - I know I have to!

Couleddie I'm not being deliberatly conforntational I just want to argue the point a little from the other side!

 

[a1]

You never picked up my point about letting someone DIY the work and then you do a PIR and issue a certificate. This is no different to what BCO do and no different to doing a PIR. Would be a source of income for yourself and a legal and safe way of homeowners doing what they felt comfortable with. If they did a crap job then it would fail and they wouldn't get their cert!

He/She wouldn't get a "Certificate" Patch, they would get an Inspection Report, Mate.

Are you talking about a PIR or Inspection by LABC (or their approved contractor, in order to issue you with an EIC?)

 

[green-hornet]

This has turned out to be a very informative debate, which is always a good thing about this forum.

We all have our own views and have expressed them here.

One thing this debate has highlighted is the fact that Part P is sadly failing, this could be down to the fact that very little is known about the implications of Part P on the home owners side, or the fact that in its implimentation it fails to adress the issues it was designed to do.

My opinion and this is my personal view, is that the Part P scheme is very much open to abuse, this can be shown by the fact that some electricians will offer a discount if no certificates are issued.

Kitchen fitters WILL quote for work outside their scope, and handy men are allowed to say they are Part P compliant even if they can not.

Electrical safety needs to be addressed at grass roots level, there is no way anyone should be allowed to carry out any electrical work in the home without having the use of suitable testing equipment.

This is a fundemental requirement under the regulations regarding the safety of the installation after any alterations.

The installation should be tested before to see if the extra loading is suitable and after to satisfy the safety requirements.

Any diy work carried out in the home could be illegal if legality where ever to be introduced.

I will explain.

Any work under the current regulations can be carried out providing that all work is carried out to the current BS7671 wiring regulations and the requirements under Part P.

One of the regulations has I have said above is the requirement to test the circuit being altered to satify that the extra loading does not effect the safety of the installation.

I would expect that most DIY'S will not have any testing equipment and could therefore never satisfy the BS7671 requirment.

For this reason all DIY work could not and would not be carried out under the regulations.

Fitting a fused spur for instance without testing could be dangerous, we have seen this in the OP which ended the life of a woman and devastated a whole family.

Continuity of the earth would have been picked up and corrected by a qualified electrician.

I have been to a house to fit a bathroom fan, when I tested the supply for fault loop and earthing I found that the rewire carried out 10 years previously had never been re connected to the main earthing, I never fitted the fan until the earthing arrangements where made right.

Any diy or odd job man would never have done this fundemental test, and the homeowners would never have known.

I would think there will be some changes to the way part p is controlled, one way would be regular updated training, instead of booked visits there could be on the spot visits. Building control could take a more serious approach to planning applications and issue a list of registered electricians who they would only accept certificates from, etc etc.

My thoughts at this time are with the family of this poor woman who lost her life in an accident that could easily have been avoided.

It is up to each and every one of us to now stand together and report any one you suspect of doing any work which they have no authority to do.

The more we report the more that can be done.

I know at the moment you may feel that its a waste of time but something has to be done and legislation is the only way it can happen, until then badger your provider until they agree to do something other than sit in the office taking your money.

 

[Apache]

He/She wouldn't get a "Certificate" Patch, they would get an Inspection Report, Mate. Are you talking about a PIR or Inspection by LABC (or their approved contractor, in order to issue you with an EIC?)

I know that Admin!

I was really proposing a 3rd way! Where you could certify another person's work to be safe without involving BCO.

 

[Couleddie]

Firstly, I appreciate you're not being confrontational, Patch. If we can't have a healthy debate without getting offended then we may as well pack in the forum now. I don't disagree with a lot of the points you raise and as someone who, at the moment, is classed as a DIYer, i'm trying to look at the subject from both sides. I know myself the limitations of doing electrical work myself - been doing it for near on 30 years and I thought what I did was pretty good. Since being on this forum and undertaking training I now know a lot of the stuff i've done over the years has been sub-standard. Not dangerous as I would never exceed my own limitations but nevertheless, below the standard expected to satisfy regulations. The point is that how does an amateur know what is right when there are so many specifics and variations that can affect the integrity of the installation? It only takes one minor error to make an installation unsafe

I would tend to say that the scope a DIYer can now legally do work in his own home is about right. Can't see why adding an outside light etc should be wrong?You never picked up my point about letting someone DIY the work and then you do a PIR and issue a certificate. This is no different to what BCO do and no different to doing a PIR. Would be a source of income for yourself and a legal and safe way of homeowners doing what they felt comfortable with. If they did a crap job then it would fail and they wouldn't get their cert!

Fair enough but if the work doesn't meet the standard and they don't get a cert, what then? Rip out the install, use it anyway or get someone qualified in to fix it?

If you move into a new house it is the new homeowners responsibility to make sure that the house is safe. If they are in doubt get a PIR before they move in. I wouldn't move house and 'expect' the electrics to be safe. For all I know the kitchen cabinets may be glued to the wall with no more nails and the pressureised hot water cylinder might be about to blow!For the sake of your self and your loved ones you check these things out! Assume nothing!

For the majority, if the lights work and appliances switch on when plugged in then, to them, it must be safe because it's working. You can't always ascertain the state of electrics from a visual check only.

So you shouldn't be allowed to 'make good' - that needs a plasterer? You shouldn't be allowed to tighten that nut on the shower - you must get a plumber in? Can't attach the new CU to the wall until a joiner has been to attach a wooden batten?

You can't really make those type of comparisons. Whereas plastering is a skill, doing it incorrectly is hardly likely to be a safety issue. I see the point you're making but the argument isn't about one trade taking business away from another, it's purely about safety. You can't compare electricity to joinery, kitchen fitting or plastering. Yes, improper workmanship can cause danger in any profession but not in the way electricity can (and does).

Every farmer injects his own cow and you can clip your cats claws if you want to. My point was that people do bits of my job themselves to save money and because they can - I look at other ways that I can earn my money. I don't get bitter and twisted and want to ban people from doing these things. I spend more time sat infornt of a computer looking at data and doing reports than a vet 10 years ago did - because farmers and to a lesser extent pet owners are getting more skilled. They are getting good advice of the internet forums . So I have to look elsewhere for my earnings. No-one should expect to sit on their backside and expect their living to fall on their lap. Go find the work. Make money sorting out other people's messes - I know I have to!

There's nothing wrong with improving knowledge and skills but there's a reason why professionals undergo the training they do, often at considerable expense to themselves. Each to their own. You can be a master of your craft but not an expert on everything. It's a little different a pet owner cutting his cat's claws. Firstly, it isn't introducing the possibility of a dangerous situation and it doesn't require a huge amount of skill. However, from my experience with the veterinary profession, I see it as a highly skilled area which I wouldn't even attempt to understand, much as I love animals. There's possibly another difference and correct me if i'm wrong but I would assume the majority of vets are in that profession because they love animals. Yes, they are providing a much needed service but as well as that there has to be an element of personal fulfilment from an interest in animals.

I wouldn't expect anyone is under the illusion that they are entitled to work. Earning a living is hard enough as it is. I'm not questioning the ethics of taking trade away from people, what I am questioning is the ability for anybody to be a jack of all trades safely.

 

[Andy™]

Adding a spur to a ring main is not hard. Fitting a loft light is not hard. I hope it's not this bit of your job you feel requires courses and an apprentiship? Cos this is primary school basic! Where your skill should lie is in the design of the installation, ensuring all cables are protected appropriately, that the earthing is sufficient, that said cable can carry the load within capibilities and is ok in terms of volt drop etc etc.

i havent read all the replies to this thread, so someone may have already said this... but even adding a spur to a ring is not a simple case of stick a cable into that socket. what if they already have a spur from a spur. 2 cables - looks like a ring. there not going to know any different. this still needs some kind of designer to make sure its all done correctly. how many DIYers know how to do this, know how to check VD complies. Earth loop? whats that? current capacity? well 'its socket cable, must be OK'

even the basics aren't always that easy. even swapping like for like, DIYers can make it dangerous. no earth in the box for your new fancy brass light switch? no problem, just ignore it