Bit of a dilemma.

[kernow1]

I've recently been asked to do some work on a house which the customer has recently bought and moved into (10 days ago).

When I went round to check the place out I noticed that the main CU had been wired with the upstairs lighting and ring main circuits both wired into the same 32A MCB. I can't see why, as the ground floor equivalents are separately wired into a 6A and 32A respectively and there are 2 spare ways available.

Anyway, to continue, I then checked out the downlights in the 'refurbished' kitchen. They are 230v 50W halogens which have been fitted with no smoke hoods (they aren't fire rated), and the one I took out had been placed where a joist had run, so the guy just used the hole-saw to remove half the offending joist and placed a thin sheet of foil over the lamp unit. I only checked the one.

Lastly,(but I'm sure not least) the cooker and ceramic hob had been moved to the opposite end of the kitchen, some 5 metres away. The control switch has been left in situ and the, what looks to be a 4mm T&E, cable has been run around behind the units on the floor as is(ie no trunking etc.). The hob and cooker wiring have been joined with a choc-block and left loose covered in insulating tape, but concealed behind the oven on the floor.

I'm fairly confident that all of the above constitute a breach of the 17th Edition Regs. But what would be the best way to approach this situation? I need the work but am acutely aware that if I start work on the system I automatically become legally responsible for all the cr*p that has been installed. (Incidentally, the CU has the fitters company name on it with the date as 03/03/2010.)

I am Part P and 17th Edition qualified, but not a Scheme member yet. What is the best thing to do here? I'm worried that other horrors exist that I haven't discovered yet.

The customer is an older guy who has no clue about house-buying etc; and therefore did not get an electrical check before purchase (I know, I know). To be fair it all looked fairly kosher to the untrained eye. I've suggested that he asks his Solicitor to approach the Seller's brief to obtain the certificates that should have been provided..........but I'm not holding my breath !!

Does anyone know if the local BCO would pursue this for him, as the work is all notifiable and should therefore have been registered?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[M107]

West Berks BCO are fairly approachable (where are you in Berks?) & as the work is recent BCO may well be interested...... Untill you call you'll not know.

Are the details of the previous installer available to check against any other scheme operators registers? you can always report down that route if they are.

 

[sparkytim]

As he was not the owner of the property at the time then i don't think he will get anywhere with it, but the LABC may be interested, and they should be able to tell you IF a Part P notification was sent in for the work.

Is the Installer registered as a competent person?

www.competentperson.co.uk

I would do a report on your findings but NOT touch anything untill you have a response.

 

[paul b b]

what does the guy want you to do?

if its minor works then you could do them, just make a detaild note of what you have done on the cert!

 

[wozz]

how would you find out the installers name? if you dont know it now im not sure of your chances of finding it in the future!

 

[green-hornet]

how would you find out the installers name? if you dont know it now im not sure of your chances of finding it in the future!

Name and address suplied on the CU.

I would report it to the LABC as others have said.

Any non conformity can be reported to the scheme provider, and any remedial works will have to be carried out by that installer at no cost to the client.

 

[wozz]

ahhhh re-read must of missed that bit. sorry

 

[green-hornet]

I do it all the time, even answer other threads in the same sentance

 

[a1spark]

What is the extent of the work you have been asked to do ? This will have a bearing on what advice to give to you.

Do the kitchen lights require a Fire-rated Fitting ?

Good advise is to advise a P.I.R.

Have you checked Main Earthing & Bonding ?

Just as an aside...What is meant by your statement of being Part P qualified...just curious.

 

[kernow1]

Just as an aside...What is meant by your statement of being Part P qualified...just curious.

By Part P qualified I mean that I sat a Building Regs exam particular to Part P (Electrical) as part of the EAL qualification. (Separate from the 17th Edition exam.) The kitchen lights are below 'a habitable room', so should be Fire Rated as I understand it.

The guy wants me to install downlights in a lounge and bedroom and to de-commission some storage heaters and move some socket outlets around. The downlights won't be pre-wired kits so will be notifiable.

I'll have a chat to the LABC and see what they can come up with. I sure won't be starting work until the situation is clearer though.

Thanks again all.

 

[a1spark]

Thanks...must say I wasnt aware of any such exam.

As I see it, Unless the Kitchen ceiling is rated in exess of the standard 30 mins, then fire rated lights are not necessarily needed, but check with LABC for their preferences

You would have to sort out the bunched circuit arrangement at the c.u, as you will be working on the circuits affected....as for any other faults let the customer know, if he is not interested then go ahead with the work requested by him...again verify earthing & bonding ,and condition of circuits you will be working on prior to starting...make relevant notes on Comments section of EIC....you cant go wrong !

 

[88daveb]

Anyway, to continue, I then checked out the downlights in the 'refurbished' kitchen. They are 230v 50W halogens which have been fitted with no smoke hoods (they aren't fire rated), and the one I took out had been placed where a joist had run, so the guy just used the hole-saw to remove half the offending joist and placed a thin sheet of foil over the lamp unit. I only checked the one.

the hole cutting through the joist for a spot light is definately a potenial hazard for residents as the joists are an intergral part of the structure. which will weaken that area and may become a stress point for the upstairs floor to collapse if a load is applied. i think you can get the beam strengthened. i'd advise getting advice on hows best to strengthen it.

 

[kme]

The exam referred to,I believe, is the EAL / GOLA 17-component(written), 16 component(practical) part "P" course.

My local college asked me to sit it as a feedback exercise, when they first started it. IIRC, it gives an NVQ level 2 qual.

KME

 

[a1spark]

So would it be more precise to call it a Domestic Installer course ,and state that the op had passed this course. Its just that stating,as he does ,that he is Part P qualified tends to give the impression that he is able to self certify his work to part P of the Building regs, obviously this is not the case and I dont think he is trying to claim that it is.until he meets the requirements of one of the Self-Certification Bodies....No reason to suspect that he wont acheive that aim..just the phrase Part P qualified is a bit ambigous to me.

 

[kernow1]

So would it be more precise to call it a Domestic Installer course ,and state that the op had passed this course. Its just that stating,as he does ,that he is Part P qualified tends to give the impression that he is able to self certify his work to part P of the Building regs, obviously this is not the case and I dont think he is trying to claim that it is.until he meets the requirements of one of the Self-Certification Bodies....No reason to suspect that he wont acheive that aim..just the phrase Part P qualified is a bit ambigous to me.

Why is it that someone always gets precious about Domestic Installers? What's the deal? Surgeons don't get p*ssy about GP's, they're both professionals in the same field, but one is more qualified than the other. This forum is generally very helpful, but that kind of elitist, high-handed bull really undermines it.

Being a member of a scheme doesn't prove much in reality, 90% of private customers have no idea what it means anyway. Being assessed on pre-arranged jobs doesn't demonstrate consistency does it? How many idiots pass a driving test then go out and kill someone?

No wonder so many forum members don't contribute eh?

Sorry I even asked a question now..........

 

[a1spark]

Hio Yer Kernow 1, I apologies if my post got your back up , it was not my intention to do that. I was just making the point that i personally dont like the phrase Part P Qualified, simply because I dont see how anyone ,and I include myself in this, can become qualified in Part P of the building Regs ! We can,however become competant in compying with Part P of the Regs..........just my own take on it.. as I say No offence intended and I hope my earlier advice on the question of Fire rated fittings and verification of the Earthing & bonding etc where of some help. Please do keep the forum updated on your progress on the situation.............Thanks.

 

[M107]

Don

 

[kernow1]

Have you been in the industry long then?

 

[M107]

Have you been in the industry long then?

Yes 2 weeks ROTFWL

Seriously I've been trading for comming on 7 years or there abouts & completed college (2360 prt's 1&2, 2391, 2381) 2002ish & yes I admit it I did night schooling before & while holding down another job where they sent me for 2 days a week for 2 years on day realease to do ONC electronics (hated it at the time but did pass).

So did all day doing electronics/micro electronics & ugghhh maths, then straight into night classes at same college with same lecturers doing electrical principles & installation work.

I'm not the only one to have taken this route of years at college/appreticeships, hence the reason you sometimes on forums get a hard time if you are seen as a 5 day wonder (please dont take that the wrong way).

I like to think that every day is a learning day no matter how long you may have been in the trade.

I know I'm still learning like today for example, fault find job 600x600 reccessed module, customer had changed lamps after they went off, but unit still would not come on with new lamps. I confirmed circuit live to Klick fitting & down to light, so I replaced modular fitting put in new lamps flick the switch........no light.

Called the wholesaler to have a moan about a duff fitting & he passed on the info from Eyre & Ellistons tec lighting dept;

"Some T5 HF fittings need the whole fitting to be isolated before lamps are removed/fitted, if you dont the fitting still will not start up even with new lamps".

They were right, isolated circuit 5 mins later re-energised all good.

 

[PIP IOM]

Why is it that someone always gets precious about Domestic Installers? What's the deal? Surgeons don't get p*ssy about GP's, they're both professionals in the same field, but one is more qualified than the other. This forum is generally very helpful, but that kind of elitist, high-handed bull really undermines it. Being a member of a scheme doesn't prove much in reality, 90% of private customers have no idea what it means anyway. Being assessed on pre-arranged jobs doesn't demonstrate consistency does it? How many idiots pass a driving test then go out and kill someone?

No wonder so many forum members don't contribute eh?

Sorry I even asked a question now..........

+1