Electric test fail.

[daveg]

Thanks for all the comments. I should have posted on here before I gave the go ahead to do the remedial work. I will not go back on my word but I will be wiser next time.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Free download industry guidance PDF's on inspection testing and condition reports may be of help to you:
https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/tx5i50ao/best-practice-guide-4-issue-7.pdf

And electrical safety in private rental sector:
https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/fnmoxlai/best-practice-guide-10.pdf

which both may possibly help clarify some of your questions/answers..?

Also you need to remember that BS7671 regulations do change over time..
Current edition is 18th Edition Amendment 2, applicable since 2022.

so when looking at historic reports there can be changes of requirements.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I found a picture of the meter cupboard from the last check-in report. The meter tails do have separate holes in the consumer unit so the second guy is correct. I have no idea what size the tails or earth cables are but maybe someone here might able to tell.

The bloke who fitted that was a tw4t...
glands for meter tails + earth are readily available, and they generally fit into a standard knock-out hole.. e.g.
https://www.toolstation.com/consumer-unit-cable-gland-kit/p59889

This would provide compliance with reg 521.5.1. (or 521.5.2 in earlier versions..)
either way they obviously doesn't know BS7671 guidance.

 

[daveg]

Special Location -Thanks for the links - I will have a read of them tonight. The installation was done about 25 years ago, I am pretty sure the installer was a qualified electrician as he was a friend of the father of the guy who owned the flat. Is it possible the rules 25 years ago were lees strict?

I googled eddy currents in metal consumer units, and found an experiment that showed at 125A the temperature of the consumer unit rose by 2 degrees C. I think if you have got 125A flowing through a meter tail into the consumer unit eddy current heating is the least of your problems.

 

[Phoenix]

That consumer unit is not 25 years old, that would make it 1999. We were on 16th edition regs back then and a few things were different. The whole all metal consumer units thing was 2015, before then, you could get metal but there would be plastic flaps on the front most of the time. BG were not even in the consumer unit market in 1999!

The board fitted in the late 90s has been changed in the last ten years. In a poor manner, I think I'd have got a piece of 4" x 2" pvc trunking and run that along where the cables go through the wall into the floor of the above stairs cupboard and slotted the board and the trunking (smaller slot in the PVC trunking than the metal board) and bolted them together with a couple of roofers, rather than the mess of unrestrained cables, and gaps in grommet entries that they have instead gone with....

I know the video you are on about, flameport a.k.a. John ward and his welder. It might be that effects are limited at domestic currents, but that doesn't mean its acceptable to do it, it might mean I'm tempted to class them more as C3s these days though

 

[daveg]

Phoenix - Thanks and sorry for posting nonsense about when the CU was fitted - I had completely forgotten getting it done until you made me think. It was fitted when I got an electrician to fit an electric shower and he said the CU should be upgraded because it was the old type with fuse wire. The video was flameport.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Special Location -Thanks for the links - I will have a read of them tonight. The installation was done about 25 years ago, I am pretty sure the installer was a qualified electrician as he was a friend of the father of the guy who owned the flat. Is it possible the rules 25 years ago were lees strict?

I googled eddy currents in metal consumer units, and found an experiment that showed at 125A the temperature of the consumer unit rose by 2 degrees C. I think if you have got 125A flowing through a meter tail into the consumer unit eddy current heating is the least of your problems.

Even if that board had been fitted 25 years ago, the regs still prohibited single individual entry points for conductors of the same circuit into ferrous enclosures..
Old Reg No 521-02-01. That's from BS7671:1992 Amendment 2 1997.

The bottom for any competent electrician is ensuring that all their work complies with the BS7671 guidance applicable. So I still consider the person who installed it to be lacking competence.

I notice that there is an NICEIC inspection sticker on the front..
It would be interesting to know their thoughts on this arrangement, especially when one of their contractors appears to have been involved?

 

[daveg]

Maybe I am just very unlucky to have found 3 electricians "lacking competence" or perhaps there are a lot out there. If I hadn't posted on here I would never have known.

 

[Murdoch]

If I hadn't posted on here I would never have known.

Good you did, and fingers crossed you found us helpful

Yes there are far too many "cheap" EICR's done these days - a quick in and out for sub £100 - which simply means the report is not to be trusted in most cases.

AND bear in mind there are lots of internet based companies offering such reports and all they do is take a wedge and get somebody local to do it for even less. A very unsatisfactory situation to say the least

 

[daveg]

Thanks Murdoch - the forum has been very helpful and I have learnt a lot. The ECIR cost £145 +VAT which is a discount rate as he does nearly all the tests for the letting agency. It is only a small flat with 5 circuits 2 of which are rings - the kitchen, 8 sockets, and other rooms 6 sockets..

I had a look online and the cheapest quote I found was £72 and I agree it doesn't seem possible to do it properly for that price. Do the electricians regulating bodies ever do spot checks to see if the tests have been done properly? Anyone know a competent electrician that covers Watford WD17?

 

[Murdoch]

Thanks Murdoch - the forum has been very helpful and I have learnt a lot. The ECIR cost £145 +VAT which is a discount rate as he does nearly all the tests for the letting agency. It is only a small flat with 5 circuits 2 of which are rings - the kitchen, 8 sockets, and other rooms 6 sockets..

I had a look online and the cheapest quote I found was £72 and I agree it doesn't seem possible to do it properly for that price. Do the electricians regulating bodies ever do spot checks to see if the tests have been done properly? Anyone know a competent electrician that covers Watford WD17?

An EICR for £72.00 - won’t be worth the paper it’s printed on

 

[bladerunnerpv]

... I don't think a certificate has been issued but have asked the letting agent to forward it if they have it - the letting agent just passed on the message that it had failed ...

The letting agent should have a copy of the paperwork stored in some manner. It's for work done on your behalf and which you're paying them a management fee for. Also presumably classed as safety related like a gas safety check cert? If they don't then it may be worth pushing to see what records they actually do have on file for your property, depends how long you've used them and how much trust you have in them I guess.

 

[Murdoch]

OP - did you get the invoice direct from the spark or from the LA

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Thanks Murdoch - the forum has been very helpful and I have learnt a lot. The ECIR cost £145 +VAT which is a discount rate as he does nearly all the tests for the letting agency. It is only a small flat with 5 circuits 2 of which are rings - the kitchen, 8 sockets, and other rooms 6 sockets..

I had a look online and the cheapest quote I found was £72 and I agree it doesn't seem possible to do it properly for that price. Do the electricians regulating bodies ever do spot checks to see if the tests have been done properly? Anyone know a competent electrician that covers Watford WD17?

The BIG problem is that electrical work is NOT regulated in England... DIY electrical work is legally permitted... Electricians do not have to be members of any voluntary trades bodies... So there is no incentive for any of the trades bodies to do any random spot checks on anyone!

There is a single registered body for anyone working on gas installations for monetary gain.. https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/

BUT there is NO equivalent single compulsory registration body for electricians.. hence the problem of finding competent tradespersons is the elephant in the room for many types of electrical alteration/addition/maintenance tasks!!

However... for the moment lets just assume you do have a competent person available to undertake an EICR...

Although the type of property will have an impact upon the actual final cost for an EICR, (2-bed, 3-bed, house, bungalow, flat etc), it isn't the only costing factor.

Other key points include:-

• Hourly labour costs vary around the country. (e.g. London more expensive than Sheffield)_
• The accuracy of existing consumer unit circuit descriptions can save a lot of time.
• Availability of copies of previous certificates and/or inspection reports.
• Accessibility and neatness of internal consumer unit wiring and all conductors terminated in correctly numbered terminals in neutral / earth bars, allowing easy identification and testing of circuits.
• If the person undertaking the inspection has previous knowledge of the installation, (e.g. done previous alterations/additions/inspections at the property).

Consider:-
A rats-nest consumer unit with no previous certificates, reports, or consumer unit circuit identification, inspected by a person who has never seen the installation before... (They will have to spend a lot of time establishing the composition of each circuit.)
-vs-
The same property with a neat full labelled consumer unit, previous certificates and reports available, and inspected by a person who has been looking after the installation, (alterations, additions & periodic inspection), for the past 20+years.. They will be able to fly through a full EICR in a much faster time which equals reduced cost!

So the costs will be significantly different.. and expensive may not mean you are being overcharged.. and cheaper may not mean you are not getting a full accurate EICR undertaken..?

Side note: your £72 googled price does seem very cheap.. That price may cover one hours labour.. but not much into the second hour..!? And even for a small installation I would be thinking half a days labour is the bare minimum to do the inspection and then write up the report!

 

[daveg]

Bladerunner & Murdoch. I have been using the same letting agent for about 10 years and am very happy with them. Unlike some agents they don't mark-up invoices. They keep records of all the safety certificates and send me copies. I have not seen an invoice yet but will get a copy with the next rent statement. When a safety certificate or a none urgent repair is needed the agent will contact me and ask me if I want them to organise it - I always say yes. They will them arrange for the work to be done and deduct the cost from the next rent payment. They send me an email when the rent is paid into my account with a copy of the invoice and any things like a GSC they have arranged.

I don't think a fail certificate has been issued and I don't mind that, it would be pointless wasting time issuing one if the same electrician was going to be used to do the remedial work. I gave the go ahead for the work done before I posted on here thinking it was a safety issue that needed sorting asap. Next time I will ask on here and if there is any doubt ask for a fail certificate and get someone else to do the remedial work.

It maybe that the meter tails and earth are too small - nobody has been able to tell definitely from the picture but it is strange the previous certificate listed them as ok. My big concern now is the broken ring circuit and think that should be further investigated. To give the electrician the benefit of the doubt he probably thought fitting a smaller MCB would be the cheapest solution. I also don't know how anyone can quote for finding a fault that may take hours to trace.

 

[binky]

Your fuse holder says 60/80 amps so 16mm tails would be sufficient.

 

[daveg]

Special Location- I am shocked electrical work is not regulated - I thought that had changed with part P.

Now I know what is involved in an EICR if I was quoting I would looking to charge at least 1/2 a day. Why anyone would do it for £72 is strange. The only ways I can see that working by doing a "drive by" or sending a low paid trainee.

 

[daveg]

Thanks Binky - it will be obvious if the tails are changed - to be generous again perhaps he thought seeing as he has to disconnect them to put them through one hole he might as well upgrade them.

 

[Fleeting]

It is possible the recommendation to replace the tails is due to the insulation exposed at the meter and they are maybe too short to rectify, from the picture that may well be the case. Nothing to do with their size.

 

[binky]

Thanks Binky - it will be obvious if the tails are changed - to be generous again perhaps he thought seeing as he has to disconnect them to put them through one hole he might as well upgrade them.
Sorry Special Location - I called you Supporting Member in a previous post.

Fair enough.