bit random... general network set up (overall picture)

[Paul2129]

Firstly, I just wonder about some odd stuff, often pointless stuff, stuff that's probably difficult to learn about online, and for this one, you guys will have a better chance of knowing about it

I developed an interest in electric cars a few years ago, I had a slow charing Vauxhall Ampera (great car) and plugged into my standard wall socket, then I bought the Tesla Model 3, and had the much larger 'Wall Connector' charger fitted, and so required some heavier wiring and a dedicated supply

I was sat at one of Tesla's 'Superchargers' at a service station the other day, for my 30 minutes charging session on my way around Scotland, I'm in the corner of a big car park and pondering a few things :

there were 12 of these chargers onsite, and each can deliver over 100kW per car simultaneously, so my question is, be it a hotel, service station, car park, or whatever, what provision is typically in place to be able to connect this kind of power. Are main power lines laid under roads, (ie the main road outside) such that they can be connected when needed, linking into that main supply to bring extra supply in. I don't for a minute imaging that they dig the road up for 10 miles to the nearest substation. edit : These are big DC chargers, not sure if that's relevant ?

So, I wonder how the provision of electricity cabling etc differs between wanting power for a plot of land which will only ever be a large car park, with mainly just lighting, and wanting power to a similar sized plot of land upon which you are wanting to build a large hotel or huge factory........... and what therefore has to change when the car park owner wants to move into the EV charging business with 20 EV fast chargers ?

as ever, please forgive me for one of my typical odd-ball questions, if you can help me understand, I'm listening

Paul

 

[UNG]

When they did a piece on BBC Breakfast a few weeks back about the new 350Kw chargers I decided to go and have a look at what was needed as a charge of that magnitude sounded like it would need a substantial supply.

The 350Kw chargers need a 263A three phase supply with another 40A for the cooling unit although you can run 2 chargers from 1 cooling unit not sure what if any diversity you could apply to the supply but I think any large charging setup would need its own substation with those sort of loads. These chargers have a fluid cooled charging lead and can charge a vehicle in 8 minutes

 

[Paul2129]

thanks for the reply UNG, certainly interesting stuff

I don't think there's a car available yet that can handle 350Kw, (the new Porsche is going to be close I think?) I guess they're future proofing their investment in these things

the future is electric !

 

[Andy™]

the future is electric !

apart from the national grid & local networks cant handle it. if everyone got a charger then there wouldnt be enough capacity. good thing we'll all have smart meters so they can turn people off when they need to

and dont forget, electric still mostly comes from fossil fuels. your car might be 'clean' but in reality youre just moving the problem somewhere else

things do need to change, but its not going to happen anytime soon

 

[Paul2129]

the guy from National Grid doesn't agree with you, not according to what he said at a recent electric car show, he claims that the total electrical consumption has gone down quite considerably since the various energy saving appliances and lighting, and that when we transition onto EV's, the (mainly night time) charging for our typical 33 mile per day average (12,000 per year) driving isn't much, about 8kWh per day ?

perhaps someone was paying him to mis-guide us ?

....... not looking for an argument, just wondered how they laid cable into car parks, to be honest 

....... and 51% of electricity was produced from fossil fuels (so I wouldn't call it 'most'), I'm guessing the rest was renewables ? that's pretty good going ? 

 

[ProDave]

The one they have not solved is how are the masses, who only have on street parking, not always in the same place. How are they going to plug in to charge every night?

 

[Andy™]

the guy from National Grid doesn't agree with you, not according to what he said at a recent electric car show, he claims that the total electrical consumption has gone down quite considerably since the various energy saving appliances and lighting, and that when we transition onto EV's, the (mainly night time) charging for our typical 33 mile per day average (12,000 per year) driving isn't much, about 8kWh per day ?

perhaps someone was paying him to mis-guide us ?

....... not looking for an argument, just wondered how they laid cable into car parks, to be honest 

....... and 51% of electricity was produced from fossil fuels (so I wouldn't call it 'most'), I'm guessing the rest was renewables ? that's pretty good going ? 

dont forget nuclear...not a fossil fuel but still not 'renewable' its currently supplying 19%

 

[Paul2129]

Hi Dave, thanks for your comment, I'm trying to solve the one about 'how do they get cables into car parks' but I've given up on that now, lol

Do you have a petrol pump in your garden, if you don't, I suppose you'll trundle down to the local petrol station, where, in a couple of years you'll see a row of electric car drivers filling their cars up for the week while they pop in for a large Costa Coffee and a packet of pickled onion Monster Munch

 

[Andy™]

itll be the same as getting every other cable isntalled - dig a trench and bury the cable. possibly already a duct to pull it through in some areas. getting to a large enough cable with capacity would be the hard part. many are simply not designed for that load, and id expect many will have their own 11kv transformer

 

[Paul2129]

goops, I forgot Nuclear !

how long will it take to charge my car on one of these nuclear power stations ?

 

[Andy™]

goops, I forgot Nuclear !

how long will it take to charge my car on one of these nuclear power stations ?

same time as any other supply

 

[Paul2129]

thanks for your reply Andy

I'm gonna disappear before I cause a riot or other argument !

 

[UNG]

thanks for the reply UNG, certainly interesting stuff

I don't think there's a car available yet that can handle 350Kw, (the new Porsche is going to be close I think?) I guess they're future proofing their investment in these things

the future is electric !

I think there is currently one vehicle that can charge at the 350Kw rate and the Porsche will be the second but Audi and Mercedes have got cars coming to production

If I remember correctly it is any vehicle that has a 960V battery that will charge at the 350Kw rate

 

[Doc Hudson]

thanks for the reply UNG, certainly interesting stuff

I don't think there's a car available yet that can handle 350Kw, (the new Porsche is going to be close I think?) I guess they're future proofing their investment in these things

the future is electric !

I would think reality suggests that the future needs to work toward some type of Hybrid. The average man-on-the-street can't even afford a modern petrol or diesel car let alone a pure electric vehicle. And even if 75%+ of the population could afford to all change their vehicles to pure electric, then the Grid would fail in a major way. Imagine a small road with 30+ houses all with two three or more electric cars. 99.9% of the population will want to re-charge overnight while they are sleeping! Why do you think that the suppliers are pushing to get smart meters fitted so they can figure out where and when the real demand occurs?

Doc H    

 

[Rob.]

The current problem with EV is the batteries. 

Ever wondered why they are produced in god forsaken places on the planet? Oh wait, those places don't comply with our emmission laws. 

So although our air is cleaner, the amount of emissions pumped out by these manufacturing/mining places is huge!

The same with cat converters on cars. 

When they first become widely used, before the manufacturing process was refined. I read somewhere that the average family car would release less emissions running over the cars life time, than was emitted by the manufacturing of the cat converter for it. Again, manufacturing was outside the UK. So not our problem!

 

[UNG]

I would think reality suggests that the future needs to work toward some type of Hybrid. The average man-on-the-street can't even afford a modern petrol or diesel car let alone a pure electric vehicle. And even if 75%+ of the population could afford to all change their vehicles to pure electric, then the Grid would fail in a major way. Imagine a small road with 30+ houses all with two three or more electric cars. 99.9% of the population will want to re-charge overnight while they are sleeping! Why do you think that the suppliers are pushing to get smart meters fitted so they can figure out where and when the real demand occurs?

Doc H    

I believe the push towards electric vehicles isn't only to reduce emissions, it is to reduce the number of vehicles on the road.

The cost of a new electric vehicle is quite high and even the secondhand market is not going to help as most will at some point need a new battery thus pushing vehicle ownership beyond what many can afford and force people onto public transport

How this will impact the working man in a van will be an interesting one, taking the job we do now could it be done using an electric vehicle with the same efficiency or could we do the job we do using public transport. Solely using electric vehicles is going to have a massive impact on business in the future. Even initiatives like having 1 in 4  lamposts with a charging point isn't going to do much to help

The fast and even faster charging that is now appearing while getting more juice into the battery quickly and making it more like fueling a petrol or diesel vehicle must have some downside that is yet to be discovered like shortening the battery life which then starts to defeat the object of reducing emissions.

The next few decades are going to be interesting in how the world adapts to life without using fossil fuels we are possibly going to need more caves

 

[Rob.]

Wouldn't worry too much. 

I foresee a major economic collapse before fossil fuels run out. 

Possibly toward the end if not after my lifetime. Just look at the massive fires stripping the world currently, an progressively getting worse every year. 

that's another subject though. An taking this thread slightly off topic.

 

[UNG]

The climate change groups will force a global economic collaspe as shipping anything anywhere will be banned if they get their way

It would be interesting to know who is controlling Greta Thunberg and what their motives are her recent stunt appears to have a carbon footprint 10x greater than her getting on a plane to the USA but it does demonstrate how business was eventually done using sail

The unfortunate fact is to maintain current lifestyles the low carbon technology is going to have to make a rapid leap forward

 

[Tony S]

Nuclear is the only way to go if electric cars are to become norm. Then there’s the infrastructure that will need rebuilding.

Going green? WE CAN’T AFFORD IT!

 

[Sharpend]

I really wonder when they will abandon this green bull, it’s not economically viable, perhaps when we have a third world status?