Can I wire a bathroom LED mirror from the old electric Shower cable

[Paul Bamber]

I am plumber currently renovating a bathroom and I usually connect the LED downlghts and LED mirrors myself because I understand it's sometimes not the greatest of jobs for sparks.

This time however the lightswitch doesn't back on to the bathroom but in a joining cupboard is the feed for the old electric shower with a 6mm cable, can I somehow tie off of this down to a 1mm cable for the LED mirror

 

[binky]

Fit a fused spur and say 5 amp fuse to suit your 1mm cable.

 

[Murdoch]

I am plumber currently renovating a bathroom and I usually connect the LED downlghts and LED mirrors myself because I understand it's sometimes not the greatest of jobs for sparks.

This time however the lightswitch doesn't back on to the bathroom but in a joining cupboard is the feed for the old electric shower with a 6mm cable, can I somehow tie off of this down to a 1mm cable for the LED mirror

you need to bear in mind that a minor works certificate should be supplied to the customer, the work may be notifiable under part p AND the circuit must have RCD protection

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

My initial concerns would be...

How are you verifying compliance with BS7671 wiring regs 132.16 & 411.3.1.2.......?
i.e. all earthing and bonding are compliant, "Before" undertaking any alterations.. Temporary Or Permanent?

And that earth loop impedances are equal to/or below the max permissible values?
And ensuring all RCD's are operating correctly..?

As fusing down a supply where a conductor CSA changes, is pretty easy to achieve..
compared to verifying that a circuit will disconnect the supply fast enough to prevent any serious or fatal electric shock to any person in the event of a fault..

I'm not aware of any electrician who will not undertake any work for an appropriate payment for their time and expertise to ensure no people, property or livestock are caused injury or damage following any work they have done?

But then I do understand that many builders, bathroom fitters, kitten fitters, conservatory fitters, odd-job-persons, plumbers... etc.. etc.. do think that all you have to do is join three wires & see if something works?

What electrical certificates are you issuing for your alteration work?
and who's name is signed in the box to confirm the amended wiring complies with BS7671..?

As ALL electrical certificates should be issued by someone who is competent and knowledgeable in all aspects of the electrical work they have undertaken!

 

[Paul Bamber]

My initial concerns would be...

How are you verifying compliance with BS7671 wiring regs 132.16 & 411.3.1.2.......?
i.e. all earthing and bonding are compliant, "Before" undertaking any alterations.. Temporary Or Permanent?

And that earth loop impedances are equal to/or below the max permissible values?
And ensuring all RCD's are operating correctly..?

As fusing down a supply where a conductor CSA changes, is pretty easy to achieve..
compared to verifying that a circuit will disconnect the supply fast enough to prevent any serious or fatal electric shock to any person in the event of a fault..

I'm not aware of any electrician who will not undertake any work for an appropriate payment for their time and expertise to ensure no people, property or livestock are caused injury or damage following any work they have done?

But then I do understand that many builders, bathroom fitters, kitten fitters, conservatory fitters, odd-job-persons, plumbers... etc.. etc.. do think that all you have to do is join three wires & see if something works?

What electrical certificates are you issuing for your alteration work?
and who's name is signed in the box to confirm the amended wiring complies with BS7671..?

As ALL electrical certificates should be issued by someone who is competent and knowledgeable in all aspects of the electrical work they have undertaken!

Thanks for all the information, I have been working in the trade for around 20 years and come across a lot of electricians and not once have I had a certificate for a couple of lights being changed. This is from some of them being selected registered as well.

The only reason I found this forum and asked the question is because I put out around 15 calls and texts to get an electrician over to do the job and not one of them were available

This comment just made me realise how annoying you guys are and up your own a***s and too busy with the bigger jobs for more money

 

[Murdoch]

Changing lights is one thing.

Adding an electric mirror is something VERY different

Chucking in insults won’t help either.

 

[Andy™]

Thanks for all the information, I have been working in the trade for around 20 years and come across a lot of electricians and not once have I had a certificate for a couple of lights being changed. This is from some of them being selected registered as well.

The only reason I found this forum and asked the question is because I put out around 15 calls and texts to get an electrician over to do the job and not one of them were available

This comment just made me realise how annoying you guys are and up your own a***s and too busy with the bigger jobs for more money

lights being changed does not require any certificates. circuits being altered is different and should have a MWC at least

tbh, with that attitude, im not surprised no one was interested

 

[kerching]

Well that escalated very quickly!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Thanks for all the information, I have been working in the trade for around 20 years and come across a lot of electricians and not once have I had a certificate for a couple of lights being changed. This is from some of them being selected registered as well.

The only reason I found this forum and asked the question is because I put out around 15 calls and texts to get an electrician over to do the job and not one of them were available

This comment just made me realise how annoying you guys are and up your own a***s and too busy with the bigger jobs for more money

I have been around in this trade for over 20+ years..
and I am well aware that dubious builders exist, dubious kitchen fitters exist, dubious bathroom fitters exist, dubious plumbers exist, dubious conservatory fitters exist, dubious loft-conversion contractors exist, etc.. and as your post suggests, dubious electricians do also exist!!
(and my gut feeling is that dubious contractors from one trade generally mix with dubious colleagues from other trades..?)

[ Side note: I have been previous involved in providing evidence for trading standards to prosecute a dubious electrician working for a dubious builder who were both ripping off a relative of one of my customers, after building and wiring of a two-story extension!! ]

However whatever your personal opinions are.. the facts are as follows:
your posts suggests you need to do an alteration to an electrical circuit.. (NOT just replace an existing fitting)
So that comes under an alteration temporary or permanent as per. BS7671 wiring regs 132.16 & 411.3.1.2

If you don't have a copy to reference to in relation to any electrical work that you are charging customer for then it is available from Amazon at approx £80..
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Requirements-Electrical-Installations-Regulations-Eighteenth/dp/1839532181/ref=sr_1_1?crid=XUP40PUE5J9Z&keywords=bs7671&qid=1685572014&sprefix=bs7671,aps,690&sr=8-1

Of course if a contractor is charging a customer for work they are not qualified to undertake,
nor do they have access to copies of current relevant guidance / regulations,
then some may suggest they could be classified as rouge traders/cowboy's?

But without further evidence I could not comment either way..
(even if someone implies I do have my head up my bottom!!)

Side Note#2: "Big jobs" OR "Small jobs"..
Providing the hourly pay rate is correct I am happy to do, and will do any work.. large or small..
e.g. 1x 10hour job at £xx per hour is the same at 10x 1hour jobs at £xx per hour.

Can't see any problem??

 

[johnb2713]

Well that escalated very quickly!

It certainly did, I can understand the plumbers response, the answers whilst factually correct I'm sure were not put across with a nice bedside manner. I do feel that some of the responses to him were somewhat confrontational and got his response because of that, you reap what you sow.

It seems that some sparkies are so insecure they protect their trade quite aggressively, to the letter of the law. It is my belief they don't hold such respect for the law in other matters eg driving their van, do they check the tyre pressures daily, do they check the tyres for damage on the inner sidewall for example? after all, a vehicle must be in roadworthy condition if it is to be driven on the road.

 

[binky]

It certainly did, I can understand the plumbers response, the answers whilst factually correct I'm sure were not put across with a nice bedside manner. I do feel that some of the responses to him were somewhat confrontational and got his response because of that, you reap what you sow.

It seems that some sparkies are so insecure they protect their trade quite aggressively, to the letter of the law. It is my belief they don't hold such respect for the law in other matters eg driving their van, do they check the tyre pressures daily, do they check the tyres for damage on the inner sidewall for example? after all, a vehicle must be in roadworthy condition if it is to be driven on the road.

Do you think plumbers are any different?

 

[johnb2713]

Do you think plumbers are any different?

No I don't, not at all, I just think it could have all been handled with a bit more tact and diplomacy that's all, I'm maybe just becoming an old fart as I age, everyone just needs to chill a little.

 

[Andy1733]

Disagree John. Tbh I thought the responses were quite tepid and to the point

 

[Murdoch]

My advice to the plumber is cultivate a relationship with a local spark and use them when you need them.

Such arrangements have worked well for me over many years

I'm working with a very dubious bathroom fitter ATM - when the job is done I won't be working with him ever again.

 

[johnb2713]

Disagree John. Tbh I thought the responses were quite tepid and to the point

Thats absolutely fine, I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

It seems that some sparkies are so insecure they protect their trade quite aggressively, to the letter of the law. It is my belief they don't hold such respect for the law in other matters eg driving their van, do they check the tyre pressures daily, do they check the tyres for damage on the inner sidewall for example? after all, a vehicle must be in roadworthy condition if it is to be driven on the road.

Noting to do with insecurity.. or protecting anything..

Just basic everyday good normal working practices that should be adopted to ensure any alteration will fail-safe... rather than just work.

Reg 132.16 comes under section "fundamental principles". and work in bathrooms also have their own set of specific regulations.. these are just some of the reference points that any competent tradesperson charging for their time should be adopting..

Questioning how a someone will be meeting the basic safety guidance is nothing to do with aggressive following the letter of the law..

More like common sense good workmanship & practice whilst undertaking electrical alterations to make sure you don't endanger people property or livestock..

I would never recommend anyone skips checking earthing, bonding, protective measures, etc.. on any job that a customer is paying for.. As there are numerous past cases where the results were not good for the customer or their families.

 

[binky]

No I don't, not at all, I just think it could have all been handled with a bit more tact and diplomacy that's all, I'm maybe just becoming an old fart as I age, everyone just needs to chill a little.

Whilst I tend to agree, this is a professional person trying to do work he is not qualified for or trained to do. Fine if he's DIYing in his own home, but not acceptable if charging the unsuspecting general public.

I've seen plumber's handiwork many times, and most leaves something to be desired. Other points completely missing in his questions were anything about RCDs, earthing arrangements, age of the existing board and supplementary bonding. All important safety issues covered by BS7671 of which he has no knowledge.

 

[johnb2713]

Noting to do with insecurity.. or protecting anything..

Just basic everyday good normal working practices that should be adopted to ensure any alteration will fail-safe... rather than just work.

Reg 132.16 comes under section "fundamental principles". and work in bathrooms also have their own set of specific regulations.. these are just some of the reference points that any competent tradesperson charging for their time should be adopting..

Questioning how a someone will be meeting the basic safety guidance is nothing to do with aggressive following the letter of the law..

More like common sense good workmanship & practice whilst undertaking electrical alterations to make sure you don't endanger people property or livestock..

I would never recommend anyone skips checking earthing, bonding, protective measures, etc.. on any job that a customer is paying for.. As there are numerous past cases where the results were not good for the customer or their families.

Fair comment, it just came across rather abrupt to me thats all, I'm sure deep down, your comments are appreciated really.

 

[johnb2713]

Whilst I tend to agree, this is a professional person trying to do work he is not qualified for or trained to do. Fine if he's DIYing in his own home, but not acceptable if charging the unsuspecting general public.

I've seen plumber's handiwork many times, and most leaves something to be desired. Other points completely missing in his questions were anything about RCDs, earthing arrangements, age of the existing board and supplementary bonding. All important safety issues covered by BS7671 of which he has no knowledge.

Fair comment.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Fair comment, it just came across rather abrupt to me thats all, I'm sure deep down, your comments are appreciated really.

Whilst some wiring regulations are open to interpretation, other basic essential safety aspects are not...

The checking & verifying that supply characteristics and earthing bonding arrangement are adequate before any type of electrical alteration temporary or permanent has been around for over the 20years that the OP said they had been working.. (in older regs books it was 130-09-01.) this is not 'a new' RCD/RCBO/Surge Protection/AFDD debate topic. People have died due to faults on installations where checks on earthing has clearly been skipped!

Anyone who is a member of any of the electrical trades bodies Napit / Elecsa / Niceic etc.. who has to have their work inspected annually will be well aware that one of the first, (if not 'The' first), thing that you are asked to verify at the installation being inspected are the earthing and bonding arrangements etc..

And I would guess that anyone who has had any formal electrical training, (attaining relevant C&G qualifications), will have had this basic essential drummed into them, over and over, during the course of their training..? As it is not an optional nicety that can be omitted because you are too busy, forgot, couldn't find it, didn't know I had to check.. etc..

So if a "professional trades person" admits to doing various electrical alterations for paying customers, and has had contact with numerous electricians over some 20 odd years...
But has to ask on the internet about connecting conductors of different sizes...?

And also claims to have never come across any electrician who issues electrical certificates, (Not forgetting that during the early stages of Part-P, {2006->2013}, all work in bathrooms & kitchens in England also required a building regs compliance certificate!).

It does make you wonder who these other contactors are..?
And how this work is getting its earthing, bonding, earth loop impedance etc.. checked?
{ This is not a homeowner doing a DIY replacement light fitting job in their own house.. }

I would be very interested to know how you would word a response, in what you describe as a 'nice bedside manner', to someone who is charging customers for their work, yet appears to be quite probably out of their depth?

Should we just spoon feed answers to anyone and everyone..?
While ignore essential safety checks that other professionals have to comply with...?
Should we avoid stating any key essential facts or list or quote industry standard guidance and/or wiring regulations...?

Do you think that because the OP is a plumber they should omit checking the earthing arrangements?
Skip doing any formal inspection and testing?
Not bother with any electrical certificates?
And just bang in a fused spur, take the money and disappear?
As you never actually offered any practical answers to the original question..?

Far too often on the internet when people don't see the answer they wanted they start moaning about people who give "factually correct" answers to the questions posted..
With claims about being up their own arses, insecure, unhelpful etc...

Or stupid claims about electricians not being interested in small jobs.. which is tosh!

Last Friday afternoon I called in to swap a security alarm battery.. £25.00
17 May.. supply & fit replacement PIR sensor for shed light.. £45.00
25 May.. Replace faulty bathroom cord pull switch £38.30
28 April.. Supply and fit replacement 6ft LED tube £40.00
Which in my book are all "small-slot-in-between-other-sort-of-jobs-work", within a 4mile radius of home!

I will do any size job, for an appropriate cost and do all industry standard tests and issue all industry standard certificates applicable for all my work etc..

And I will answer any questions to the best of my ability, knowledge, experience, as factually correct as I can, based on my personal experience of being fully qualified to current wiring regulations, a member of an industry recognised trade body, with access to suitable calibrated test equipment, having appropriate insurance and copies of relevant documents for the work I undertake. And being self employed since Feb 1999.. You can be confidently assured insecurity is not an issue.