Adapting Summerhouse Electric's

[Blue Duck]

In the the vast vast empty casam that is my mind I seem to recall that this forum was set up as an alternative to "another" forum which was rather un friendly.

And so it was laid in stone by the great Welsh wizard (I think) that this forum shall be helpful and friendly.

There are many people who contribute on here who's main employment is not electrical contracting but they show a keen intrest in gaining the knowledge, skill and have a methodical approach to their work.

we aren't giving away trade secrets here. it's all out there you just have to look it up or buy a red copy of bs7671 on ebay for £3.

what ProDave started with was providing the basic knowledge to the OP so they could work out what they would need to do the work safely. we aren't giving step by step instructions but trying to ensure as much as we can that the work is done properly.

As for loosing out. I'm not too sure about that? I know some have got work off the back of this forum, and I know steptoe has met some nice ladies.

FWIW the "member title" is just a kind of recognition of post count the ones with a tm after the name are regular members tortured by one of the four horsemen (forum owners).

As for the OP I dunno? it's all been lost in the bun fight now

 

[Pacman52]

Thanks Essex - I don't take it personally at all and I again I totally understand where your coming from as this is your living (and Murdoch's) Perhaps if he/she replied initially without the references to Guy Fawkes and The Muppets this thread could of remained 'Polite and Healthy' as you say.  

Thanks for your reply as well Steptoe.

It's a sad world we live in these days where a simple request for help and advice is greeted with these types of responses less the constructive ones that is. I will be speaking to my Spark in the morning and asking him to come and assess the job. I've used this guy for years he is a the type of person who does help people with free advice where he thinks it acceptable for them to do it as he has done with me in the past because he actually knows my capabilities. The trouble with having to do this is that he is so busy it takes ages to get an appointment with him but worth the wait to be safe.

 

[Essex1]

protect the cable,

ye, you could go 300 or 500,

but for domestic I like to keep it simply and easy,

keeps all the 'installers' busy reading regs when they come to EICR, can you imagine the fail rates they would be giving out if we started putting 500s on domestic jobs,?  :shakehead

I may need educating here but why would an SWA sub-main require any type of RCD protection?

 

[steptoe]

As for loosing out. I'm not too sure about that? I know some have got work off the back of this forum, and I know steptoe has met some nice ladies.

Ive met their loving husbands too      :slap

and, Im pretty sure some of the others may not have been female, or not for all of their lives anyway,

the ones that simply werent ladies, well, lets not talk about those, shall we,  :innocent

 

[Essex1]

In the the vast vast empty casam that is my mind I seem to recall that this forum was set up as an alternative to "another" forum which was rather un friendly.

And so it was laid in stone by the great Welsh wizard (I think) that this forum shall be helpful and friendly.

There are many people who contribute on here who's main employment is not electrical contracting but they show a keen intrest in gaining the knowledge, skill and have a methodical approach to their work.

we aren't giving away trade secrets here. it's all out there you just have to look it up or buy a red copy of bs7671 on ebay for £3.

what ProDave started with was providing the basic knowledge to the OP so they could work out what they would need to do the work safely. we aren't giving step by step instructions but trying to ensure as much as we can that the work is done properly.

As for loosing out. I'm not too sure about that? I know some have got work off the back of this forum, and I know steptoe has met some nice ladies.

FWIW the "member title" is just a kind of recognition of post count the ones with a tm after the name are regular members tortured by one of the four horsemen (forum owners).

As for the OP I dunno? it's all been lost in the bun fight now

You put it very well but members that believe safety is paramount and who's views are that no DIY work should be taking place should not be shot down AS LONG as they post in a polite and respectful manor.

 

[Doc Hudson]

For the record I have never undertaken (or would undertake) any work electrical or otherwise without being 100% sure I knew it was safe. If I had ANY doubt I would always call in a professional. The main purpose of my original post was to find out if this project was within my capabilities and if I was legally allowed to carry it out if it was.

[SIZE=10.5pt]With regard to your question "what can you legally do?" BS7671 wiring regulations are Non-Statutory. which I am sure you will understand means they are not legally enforceable. They are guidance for good practice but can be used under the umbrella of other statutory documents. In commercial installations these include H&S at work act 1974, Electricity at work regs 1989 etc. These are not applicable for your own private DIY work within a domestic dwelling. However Part P of the building regulations is statutory and does apply to electrical work in domestic dwellings. Guidance about this can be downloaded as an approved document. http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdfhttp://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf.   Unfortunately some members are of the opinion that all DIY electrical work is lethal, dangerous and should be made illegal. When that is the case, I am sure the forum owners will adopt a suitable standard message to be applied to any DIY questions.  While DIY electrical work is still legally allowed in this country we will occasionally get some members on their high horses trying to insist no one should ask anything unless they are professionally qualified to ask. This is not the the way the forum is intended to work, and all members should be given a clear factually correct answer without abuse or ridicule. I apologies on behalf of the forum for some of the comments to you. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Doc H.[/SIZE]

 

[Essex1]

Thanks Essex - I don't take it personally at all and I again I totally understand where your coming from as this is your living (and Murdoch's) Perhaps if he/she replied initially without the references to Guy Fawkes and The Muppets this thread could of remained 'Polite and Healthy' as you say.  

Thanks for your reply as well Steptoe.

It's a sad world we live in these days where a simple request for help and advice is greeted with these types of responses less the constructive ones that is. I will be speaking to my Spark in the morning and asking him to come and assess the job. I've used this guy for years he is a the type of person who does help people with free advice where he thinks it acceptable for them to do it as he has done with me in the past because he actually knows my capabilities. The trouble with having to do this is that he is so busy it takes ages to get an appointment with him but worth the wait to be safe.

I am sorry you got annoyed with the thread but I do personally feel you are doing the right thing. Good luck and I hope you post back with your progress.

 

[steptoe]

I may need educating here but why would an SWA sub-main require any type of RCD protection?

a couple of reasons,

I never said a SWA, other external cable types are equally acceptable,

but, apart from that, as I already alluded to, I wouldnt run an outside supply of any type on a domestic job without RCD protection, and, we have no idea of the earthing situation,

this can often be a drawback of the written word as opposed to spoken,

and very definitely a drawback of no site visit,

we are trying to advise as safely as possible on a job we are blind to, so to speak.

 

[Blue Duck]

You put it very well but members that believe safety is paramount and who's views are that no DIY work should be taking place should not be shot down AS LONG as they post in a polite and respectful manor.

your not gonna stop DIY electrical. there's waaay too much money in it and they ALL know it. It takes the fire brigade to step in to stop people's houses burning down while the powers that be are too busy tripping over the huge piles of money.

I wish it could be licenced in some way due to the amount of dangerous ***** I see on a daily basis!

 

[Essex1]

a couple of reasons,

I never said a SWA, other external cable types are equally acceptable,

but, apart from that, as I already alluded to, I wouldnt run an outside supply of any type on a domestic job without RCD protection, and, we have no idea of the earthing situation,

this can often be a drawback of the written word as opposed to spoken,

and very definitely a drawback of no site visit,

we are trying to advise as safely as possible on a job we are blind to, so to speak.

I still cannot see in any circumstance where an SWA sub-main to an outhouse would require RCD protection. To be run external it would have to be either SWA or within steel conduit. Wth the exception of a TT supply to the main house I cannot see any reason to 'protect' a sub-main in this way.

your not gonna stop DIY electrical. there's waaay too much money in it and they ALL know it. It takes the fire brigade to step in to stop people's houses burning down while the powers that be are too busy tripping over the huge piles of money.

I wish it could be licenced in some way due to the amount of dangerous ***** I see on a daily basis!

I don't want to stop it. I just want to try and make people think twice about possibly putting themselves and their family at risk.

 

[steptoe]

I still cannot see in any circumstance where an SWA sub-main to an outhouse would require RCD protection. To be run external it would have to be either SWA or within steel conduit. Wth the exception of a TT supply to the main house I cannot see any reason to 'protect' a sub-main in this way.

I don't want to stop it. I just want to try and make people think twice about possibly putting themselves and their family at risk.

why?

whats wrong with HI-TUFF, or PVC conduit, as just two examples?

loads of other external methods are acceptable also.

also, as I said, why not 100mA TD it,? its adding one more layer of safety to a domestic install for an external supply,

tbh, imho, anyone that runs an external supply , even in SWA, on a domestic without RCD protection is just cutting corners, only my opinion mind,

but, I'd note it on an EICR,

 

[Essex1]

why?

whats wrong with HI-TUFF, or PVC conduit, as just two examples?

loads of other external methods are acceptable also.

also, as I said, why not 100mA TD it,? its adding one more layer of safety to a domestic install for an external supply,

tbh, imho, anyone that runs an external supply , even in SWA, on a domestic without RCD protection is just cutting corners, only my opinion mind,

but, I'd note it on an EICR,

Are you serious? PVC conduit outside? Warping in the summer and discolouration in direct sunlight. That in my opinion is unacceptable.

Please quote a regulation that it contravenes not putting 100mA RCD protection on an external cable. That I would like to see as it would be a first for me. Putting RCDs in where they have no place is poor practice and any reputable electrician should be able to choose when and where they are required and not just RCD everything.

 

[Pacman52]

Thank you Doc I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

I won't be using this forum again (I wonder why - lol)

Although it has taught me a lot e.g. I must get a qualified mechanic when my car tyres need inflating, I must also ensure I have a professional decorator when I need to gloss some word work and even get professional gardener in when the grass needs cutting or strimming (that can be extremely dangerous to do without proper training and certification). Christ all the times I've changed a light bulb on my own without killing myself .. it's a miracle !!

Point being not all DIY'ers are stupid - granted a lot are, but not all !!

Thank to everyone who posted constructive replies - shame the forum is let down by others though.

 

[Lurch]

Are you serious? PVC conduit outside? Warping in the summer and discolouration in direct sunlight. That in my opinion is unacceptable.

Please quote a regulation that it contravenes not putting 100mA RCD protection on an external cable. That I would like to see as it would be a first for me. Putting RCDs in where they have no place is poor practice and any reputable electrician should be able to choose when and where they are required and not just RCD everything.

You cannot say adding a 100mA RCD when not required is insane and then in the same conversation rule out a perfectly acceptable method of cable containment for no reason.

 

[Essex1]

when I started in this game electricans were respected for the dangerous job they did. Now we are the same as decorators and gardeners. Or is that wall colouration engineers and grass levelling engineers?????

 

[steptoe]

Are you serious? PVC conduit outside? Warping in the summer and discolouration in direct sunlight. That in my opinion is unacceptable.

Please quote a regulation that it contravenes not putting 100mA RCD protection on an external cable. That I would like to see as it would be a first for me. Putting RCDs in where they have no place is poor practice and any reputable electrician should be able to choose when and where they are required and not just RCD everything.

any reg that states cables require mechanical protection,

really, you never use pvc conduit outside,

how do you get you earth to your rod then on a TT system? you are not permitted to use steel conduit.

I have black pvc conduit at the back of my house, facing almost due south, looks fine to me,and more importantly, swmbo has no complaints about it, so it must be ok,

so, if you dont use 100mA RCD protection, and you dont use SWA or steel conduit, how do you suppose you are protecting this external cable then?

have you ever actually done any work on TT systems? or agricultural premises? or equestrian units?

do you understand the principles of 100mA / 300mA / 500mA RCDs , TDs , S's , as opposed to normal 30mA RCDs ?

and what they are used for, and how they are implemented?

it beggars belief that someone that appears to have some knowledge of electrical systems is stating SWA or steel conduit is all that is permitted outside,

and sees no use for a 100mA TD RCD on a domestic system outside a TT,  :shakehead

 

[Essex1]

You are right I would never install pvc conduit outside.

An earth does not require mechanical protection soncan be clipped direct so I am not sure of your point there.

Are you suggesting that if a cable has insufficient mechanical protection to be run externally then an RCD can be used for mechanical protection?

 

[Doc Hudson]

Are you serious? PVC conduit outside? Warping in the summer and discolouration in direct sunlight. That in my opinion is unacceptable.

Lets hope PVC gutters and downpipes dont catch on. Totally unacceptable, keep all external pipes and gutters galvanised.

Doc H.

 

[Essex1]

Lets hope PVC gutters and downpipes dont catch on. Totally unacceptable, keep all external pipes and gutters galvanised.

Doc H.

But with warping comes water ingress and the fundimental difference with guttering and conduit is...oh yes. Electricity.

 

[steptoe]

no, but I am saying clipping an earth outside to a rod without any sort of mechanical protection is rough as a badgers arse,

and will look even worse than a nicely saddled piece of whatever colour conduit blends in best,

lots of cables are suitable for use outside, I've already named you one, apart from SWA are you a bit stuck on others that are suitable?

you could have some pyro, that would be suitable without an RCD also, buit, why wouldnt you put one on anyway?

its domestic, keep the householder as safe as possible, after all, thats why they employ us professionals, to do it right,

so, help me out here, or is google too slow tonight, ?

what other cables can we use outside safely ?