certificate training

[Sidewinder]

Lurch,

Why should you have to test nominal voltage, this can be by enquiry?

 

[Lurch]

I suppose, just can;t see why you wouldn;t be measuring it at some point anyway?

 

[Sidewinder]

Lurch,

You would measure it, at some point I'm certain, well you should!.

However, you can't enter a measured value as a nominal value as the 2 are "incompatible".

 

[steptoe]

i never do a U for single phase as to my mind it is NV, voltage in the UK is designed at 400/230 (I know I know) according to BRB,

on single phase you have no U in my mind anyway.

measuring it will probably give you something totally illegal like 248.5 anyway, so then what do you do.?

recalc all your circuits for the deviation from BRB.?

 

[Lurch]

Now, I have always measured U and Uo as required, I couldn;t actually say where I got this from but I've filled in forms for various contractors and it's never been mentioned before, and some have been sticklers on form filling.

 

[spinlondon]

I note that you have put N/A in the box for double or reinforced insulation.

Are the meter tails not double insulated?

You have also put N/A in the box marked SELV, then ticked the box for electrical separation.

What sort of electrical separation is present?

You have ticked the box marked segregation of band I and band II circuits.

What band I circuits are present.

Finally you have used the term LIM in the box for IR between live conductors.

Where is the box for detailing the limitations, and when was BS7671 changed to allow limitations on an EIC?

 

[steptoe]

I note that you have put N/A in the box for double or reinforced insulation.Are the meter tails not double insulated?

You have also put N/A in the box marked SELV, then ticked the box for electrical separation. its not the same thing

What sort of electrical separation is present? a shaver socket at 230v could be.

You have ticked the box marked segregation of band I and band II circuits.

What band I circuits are present. some stuff not at 230, alarm/tv etc...

Finally you have used the term LIM in the box for IR between live conductors.

Where is the box for detailing the limitations, and when was BS7671 changed to allow limitations on an EIC? this I agree is a very strange one, but you can limit the extent of the installation you have worked on, ie, extent of work carried out box. Im a bit at odds with this myself, but, what do you do.?

me in red.

 

[spinlondon]

A bit pointless you answering my questions, if you don't know the answers steptoe.

 

[the_mouse]

Finally you have used the term LIM in the box for IR between live conductors.Where is the box for detailing the limitations, and when was BS7671 changed to allow limitations on an EIC?

The reason for the limitation is detailed in the notes on the schedule of test results page. Should there be a specific box for this?

If this was was a new installation and initial verification being reqired then i agree with your point about not allowing limitations but its a consumer unit change (an alteration) and there were limitations eg pir lights, alarm, boiler, fancy light fittings all could be damaged by a full IR test. Is there a better method of recording this?

Interestingly in the book a practical guide to inspection, testing and certification by Christopher Kitcher on page 116 he states "In the case of a consumer

 

[spinlondon]

If you look at the notes for the schedule of inspections on the model forms in BS7671, you will see reference to LIM. You will also see in brackets that it is only applicable to PIRs.

When conducting a PIR, there is a box for recording any limitations that apply to the inspection and testing, in the OSG example (page 152), they list no dismanteling or lifting of floorboards, which are fairly common.

The normal practice when testing IR between line and neutral connected together and earth is to indicate on the schedule of tests which circuits are vulnerable as shown in the example in the OSG (page 147) or sometimes by actually listing the vulnerable equipment as in the OSG example on page 140.

Although this is an alteration, and not a new install, initial verification is still required.

If you read the bottom of the model form page 333 in BS7671, there is reference to schedules, which indicates they are in fact part of the EIC.

It states: "The attached schedules are part of this document and this certificate is only valid when they are attached to it."

I would also draw your attention to the last paragraph on page 334 in BS7671, which states:

"This certificate is intended to be issued only for a new electrical installation or for new work associated with an addition to an existing installation. It should not have been issued for the inspection of an existing electrical installation. A "Periodic Inspection Report" should be issued for such an inspection."

You seem to be suggesting that this EIC could be some form of combined EIC/PIR.

In which case I would expect there to be a note of any limitations, and LIM to be used instead of N/A for instance in the box marked 'Routing of cables in prescribed zones'.

 

[the_mouse]

If you look at the notes for the schedule of inspections on the model forms in BS7671, you will see reference to LIM. You will also see in brackets that it is only applicable to PIRs.When conducting a PIR, there is a box for recording any limitations that apply to the inspection and testing, in the OSG example (page 152), they list no dismanteling or lifting of floorboards, which are fairly common.

The normal practice when testing IR between line and neutral connected together and earth is to indicate on the schedule of tests which circuits are vulnerable as shown in the example in the OSG (page 147) or sometimes by actually listing the vulnerable equipment as in the OSG example on page 140.

Although this is an alteration, and not a new install, initial verification is still required.

so are you saying that if you yourself change a consumer unit you would remove all decrative lighting all fixed loads lift floorboards etc possibly damaging the items and decor??

If you read the bottom of the model form page 333 in BS7671, there is reference to schedules, which indicates they are in fact part of the EIC.

It states: "The attached schedules are part of this document and this certificate is only valid when they are attached to it."

have to disagree with you on this one as you have written they are part of the document not certificate however the EIC is invalid without them so i see where you are coming from

I would also draw your attention to the last paragraph on page 334 in BS7671, which states:

"This certificate is intended to be issued only for a new electrical installation or for new work associated with an addition to an existing installation. It should not have been issued for the inspection of an existing electrical installation. A "Periodic Inspection Report" should be issued for such an inspection."

You seem to be suggesting that this EIC could be some form of combined EIC/PIR.

as i posted this was suggested in the book a practical guide to inspection, testing and certification by Christopher Kitcher which makes sense to me, A CCU change does effect the whole installation and tests need to be carried out to ensure the circuits meet the current standards, but you cant be expected to rip up floorboards to ensure there are no hidden juntion boxes, trace circuits to ensure they are in safe zones etc...

In which case I would expect there to be a note of any limitations, and LIM to be used instead of N/A for instance in the box marked 'Routing of cables in prescribed zones'.

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn, all examples of a filled in EIC are all complete installs from scratch, i dont have an issue with this, a CCU change is a different kettle of fish and i havent seen an example of one, this is why i enquired if there was such a thing as certificate training.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

May be worth you getting this book and having a read through...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Domestic-Periodic-Inspection-Testing-Reporting/dp/1906091064/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1288284832&sr=8-8

covers a lot of the questions you are asking....

Certificate training is IMHO a bit like asking if there is any training for fixing labels and warning signs, or writing invoices?

If you understand what work you have done..

you will know what inspections & tests you have done..

The certificate is just a record of those tests & installation details no?

Guidance note 3 gives clear details of the sort of tests needed and what are acceptable results.



:|

 

[spinlondon]

There are 2 tests that may be conducted when testing IR.

You can test between live conductors and earth separately, or with the live conductors joined between earth. Which ever is appropriate.

You can disagree as much as you want, the quote is direct from the model form on page 333 in BS7671.

Despite the advice given in your book, there is no requirement to Inspect or Test the existing installation.

In ideal circumstances, there would be a PIR before the work is commenced, and an EIC issued after. This EIC would also cover any remedial work conducted to rectify any defects shown in the PIR.

The ESC publish best practice guides, on a number of issues, including CU changes.

These can be downloaded from their site, and I beleive even ordered as a hard copy.

Here is the list of actions they deem should be carried out before work comences:

 

[the_mouse]

Certificate training is IMHO a bit like asking if there is any training for fixing labels and warning signs, or writing invoices?If you understand what work you have done..

you will know what inspections & tests you have done..

The certificate is just a record of those tests & installation details no?

Guidance note 3 gives clear details of the sort of tests needed and what are acceptable results.



:|

This is where my confusion starts, and maybe im not expalining very well, the actual testing i dont have a problem with its the inspections i have trouble with:

for example, i change the CCU the cables i extend are in a prescribed zone but i cant guarantee the rest of the house has, so do i put a tick in the relevant box in schedule of inspections because the work i have done the cables are indeed in a safe zone or is my resonsability the whole installation in which case i should note it as a limitation?

If the answer is im only responsible for the work which i do and the schedule of test are all ok then, with a bit of practice i can sort my own issues out.

hope that makes sense....probably not

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

You are only ever responsible for the work you do...

That is why you have the description of works & extent of the instillation covered by this certificate box.

Why the issues with a CU change..

What about when you add a new socket onto a ring...

You cannot rip all the rest of the ring cable about to see where it runs???

It is YOUR work you are signing for!

so you fill in all the relevant boxes and readings relating to the work you have done.

 

[spinlondon]

Special has put it quite succinctly.

You are not respnsible for the existing installation.

You are required where practicable to note any defects in the existing installation, but that does not extend to conducting a full I&T of the existing installation.

If as you said, you were to extend cables when conducting a CU change, and indicated on the schedule of inspections that cables are run in prescribed zones.

Then were to indicate that there is SELV which you hadn't installed, one would assume that you had inspected the existing installation and believe that your indicating that cables are in prescribed zones also applied to the existing installation.

You cannot limit your I&T on the work you have conducted, as any defects or ommissions have to be rectified before issuing the EIC.

I believe that you should only indicate on the schedule of inspections items that apply to the work you have conducted. Any items that don't apply, should be marked N/A.

Of course, this is only my opinion.

 

[PC Electrics]

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=164984#post164984

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=163869#post163869

Have a look at the threads above, they may help.

 

[the_mouse]

You are only ever responsible for the work you do...That is why you have the description of works & extent of the instillation covered by this certificate box.

Why the issues with a CU change..

What about when you add a new socket onto a ring...

You cannot rip all the rest of the ring cable about to see where it runs???

It is YOUR work you are signing for!

so you fill in all the relevant boxes and readings relating to the work you have done.

right penny starting to drop, in reality if i install it it would be a tick in the relevant box if i dont its N/A