climate change is natural?

[Apache]

Thing is, even if you don't believe it's man made, the simple fact is greener energy is now cheaper than oil and gas, so why not go green?

This is where I sit on the whole climate change issue. I don't believe the science is as convincing as is made out by the media. That absolutely doesn't mean we shouldn't waste energy or resources (supposedly 1/3 of food sold goes in the bin). If there is a better alternative then of course we should use that, minimise all energy use, insulate and change how we build houses etc. Don't start me on electric cars though......

 

[binky]

This is where I sit on the whole climate change issue. I don't believe the science is as convincing as is made out by the media. That absolutely doesn't mean we shouldn't waste energy or resources (supposedly 1/3 of food sold goes in the bin). If there is a better alternative then of course we should use that, minimise all energy use, insulate and change how we build houses etc. Don't start me on electric cars though......

trouble with the media is the only present short, easy to digest conclusions, and even when they have a debate it's hard to fit the whole shebang of climate science into an hour long programme. I've tried reading some of the science papers, it's a creat solution for insomnia . Likewise the pros and cons of the answers to it all - concensus on that is a little lacking other than more wind and solar. You also have to be slightly wary of Greenwash, like carbon offset schemes that are resulting in buying huge swathers of good quaity farmland to plant commercial forestry on, and alternative technologies that lands control of energy in the hands of large corporations to exploit, such as carbon capture. Which is why I like micro generation like solar on houses and factories.

But you are right, the ultimate aim is sustainability, buy less, waste less, be frugal with resources.

Out of interest are you seeing many farmers taking up regenertive farming ideas up your way?

 

[johnb2713]

My personnal circumstances dictate what I have done and how far I've taken it. Trying to make a Victorian terrace house greener is like trying to make a silk purse from a sows ear, and very frustrating!But my house is better than it was when I bough it, and far from ideal. What I really need is cheaper electric to make installing ASHP viable, and that can only really come from government action.

But the above is the same for all of us, none of us can afford to go green so where do we go, how do we do it? You could argue it needs to be government funded but where do governments get their cash? thats right, from us.

However, all that is a side track from the main argument about climate change, so I will say to you also, show me the scientific evidence that climate change is not man made.

It's more difficult to prove something hasnt happened than when it has.It is still my opinion that climate change IS happening, I also firmly believe that is is cyclical and that not all of it is man made, some of it is for sure but not all of it. Cars cause a lot of the global warming gases but even that is a miniscule amount. Many people say the same as you nowhere to park it, too expensive and so on which I'm sure is true in many cases but there are cheaper EV's coming to market. The argument keep running an old car is environmentally better than buying a new car I really don't buy into, many new cars are built to from recycled materials and are designed to be recyclable eg BMW i3.

NB, it's fair to say I know more about solar, it was my living for 10 years, same as climate scientists know far more about the climate than I do, as it's their job to study such things, like wise medical staff know far more about how my body works etc etc

Don't start me on electric cars though......

Nowt wrong with EV’s

 

[malcyorks]

If you can afford them. Which the vast majority of people in UK just can’t.

Why is it that the last time I was in Aus I could buy an EV for 30,000 Aus dollars yet the cheapest car in the UK is from 30,000 UK pounds which is almost twice the price??

 

[johnb2713]

If you can afford them. Which the vast majority of people in UK just can’t.

Sorry, that’s rubbish. Yes EV’s are more expensive to buy but much cheaper to run. If you look around there are some very competitively priced EV’s too.

Why is it that the last time I was in Aus I could buy an EV for 30,000 Aus dollars yet the cheapest car in the UK is from 30,000 UK pounds which is almost twice the price??

The same can be said for ICE vehicles, check between UK and USA for example.

 

[malcyorks]

When taking running costs into the equation you’re right but the vast majority of uk citizens don’t have 30k in their back pocket to gain the future savings. That’s the real issue.

Last time I looked. Citreon C2 petrol from 21k. C2 electric from 31k.

 

[johnb2713]

When taking running costs into the equation you’re right but the vast majority of uk citizens don’t have 30k in their back pocket to gain the future savings. That’s the real issue.

Last time I looked. Citreon C2 petrol from 21k. C2 electric from 31k.

The options are simple, PCP it or buy used. Alternatively, buy a used EV, much longer lifespan than any ICE vehicle due to less moving parts etc.

 

[binky]

But the above is the same for all of us, none of us can afford to go green so where do we go, how do we do it? You could argue it needs to be government funded but where do governments get their cash? thats right, from

Going green has saved me a small fortune, but what we really need is the government to create the conditions for change, eg removing the block on onshore wind, giving the same tax breaks to green energy they give to oil and gas, promoting micro nuclear, promoting investment in batteries etc etc. Even better borrow the money, and build the infrastruture as no corporation can borrow money as cheap as the government, and keep it under public ownership - not a popular option these days... Other simple things we can all do are, shop less, fly less, walk more, use public transport more, refuse to buy things like apples from China or strawberries at Xmas, and of course, lobby our MPS to get green faster.

It's more difficult to prove something hasnt happened than when it has.It is still my opinion that climate change IS happening, I also firmly believe that is is cyclical and that not all of it is man made, some of it is for sure but not all of it.

the first video I posted covers some of the science behind allowing for natural climate change, it's not detailed, but you can soon google the detail if you want to fully understand how they have done that.

Cars cause a lot of the global warming gases but even that is a miniscule amount. Many people say the same as you nowhere to park it, too expensive and so on which I'm sure is true in many cases but there are cheaper EV's coming to market. The argument keep running an old car is environmentally better than buying a new car I really don't buy into, many new cars are built to from recycled materials and are designed to be recyclable eg BMW i3.

Think it was the third post that covers sources of CO2, and why they are being targetted, which is as much about 'easy' places to start as anything else, but if you understand how natural forces are not at work, then emmissions from cars etc etc become far more important

My car was made before anything resembling a really useable EV were available, it's 14 years old. I never buy new cars anyway, I prefer to buy cars around 3 years old when they have depreciated by about half the new price. Anyway, the argument is about the energy used to make a new car v keeping an existing car running, and according to what I have read, it's greener to keep older vehicles running based on CO2 emmissions. What we are trying to avoid is adding CO2 to the atmosphere, which building new cars does in quite large quantities as most industry is still reliant on fossil fuels, especially things like steel, so if you can delay those CO2 emmissions by say 5 years keeping an older vehicle running before it gets scrapped, you delay releasing that CO2 for 5 years, and hopefully more of the energy used to build it would be green by then. Air purity is a different argument and one that has arisen since we bought the car some 11 years ago. We intend to keep the vehicle until it becomes 'beyond economic repair'. I do keep looking at EVs, prices are dropping, so will probably buy one sometime in the next 5 years, but it would really help if we had a drive, or far more charge points were installed - supermarkets are getting there with fast charge points, so excuses are disappearing slowly. Again, this is where government policy could make a big difference.

 

[johnb2713]

My car was made before anything resembling a really useable EV were available, it's 14 years old. I never buy new cars anyway, I prefer to buy cars around 3 years old when they have depreciated by about half the new price.

That has been my practice too until the one we've just bought for my wife, this time we bought new.

Anyway, the argument is about the energy used to make a new car v keeping an existing car running, and according to what I have read, it's greener to keep older vehicles running based on CO2 emmissions.

What we are trying to avoid is adding CO2 to the atmosphere, which building new cars does in quite large quantities as most industry is still reliant on fossil fuels, especially things like steel, so if you can delay those CO2 emmissions by say 5 years keeping an older vehicle running before it gets scrapped, you delay releasing that CO2 for 5 years, and hopefully more of the energy used to build it would be green by then. Air purity is a different argument and one that has arisen since we bought the car some 11 years ago. We intend to keep the vehicle until it becomes 'beyond economic repair'. I do keep looking at EVs, prices are dropping, so will probably buy one sometime in the next 5 years, but it would really help if we had a drive, or far more charge points were installed - supermarkets are getting there with fast charge points, so excuses are disappearing slowly. Again, this is where government policy could make a big difference.

From Top Gear:-
"The fallacy runs that it’s always best to keep old petrol cars going because it takes a lot of energy to build a car. But actually, of the energy and CO2 a petrol car is responsible for in its lifetime, roughly four times is in the driving compared with the manufacturing. For an EV it’s about three times.
So when buying new, get one that has the lowest possible CO2 impact when driving, and that’s an electric car. Over their lifetime, EVs are responsible for far less CO2 than ICE cars. Especially because compared with early EVs, many of today’s are built in low-CO2 factories with renewable energy. So, if you’re one of these people who gets a new car every three or four years and you want to lower your CO2, go electric. Don’t cause another ICE car to be built. It’s simple.

But what if your existing petrol or diesel car is perfectly satisfactory? Obviously if you cause one less vehicle – of any kind – to be manufactured, you’re saving CO2 in the short term. But if you drive a lot of miles or your car is thirsty, then sell it to someone who drives less. Getting an EV would after a very few years move you into credit. If it’s efficient and you drive little, probably hold on to it for a while.
In most areas of life, the greenest thing is simply to buy less stuff and keep it for longer. But with ICE cars, because they emit so much CO2 in use, it’s not always so simple."

 

[Apache]

much longer lifespan than any ICE vehicle due to less moving parts etc.

My Defender is 25 years old (1999) - do you honestly believe any of the EV cars will still be on the road in 25 years, AND be capable of towing 3.5 tonnes and going off-road. My morbid prediction is in a few years there will be a sudden dump of snow, 100's of cars stuck overnight on the motorway and people will die when their electric cars go flat.

Out of interest are you seeing many farmers taking up regenertive farming ideas up your way?

Currently, no.

The biggest shame in all of this is that we didn't continue to invest in nuclear power.

 

[Fleeting]

I buy a car that gives me a driving thrill not an EV appliance. I have little interest in this climate jive I don't care I want to feel the life in what I drive and that means not being that dull EV driver pretending they are enjoying it. Yes some EV cars have power but it is soulless and that doesn't float my boat.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I've only skip read some of these post...

But a MASSIVE problem that I see is that no matter what our little UK contribution may or may not possibly have on a global problem....
Basically the UK itself can do naff all to change the global situation.!!!

I recall listening to a green, eco, issues, Radio 4 documentary type program last year where a statistic was quoted which, if true, puts most of our petty, egocentric green contributions into a miniscule context..

The statistic was: "Over the past 10 years China has produced an equivalent amount of Co2 gasses that the UK has produced since the start of the Industrial revolution!!"

Plus that UK is only responsible for 1% or less of the global carbon generated waste problems...

So a handful of EV's on UK roads isn't going to change much globally.
Perhaps people with multiple cars should just have one car maximum?
Or stop importing bucket loads of China manufactured produce..
Electronics.... EV batteries... Solar Panels.. etc... etc... ??

Our previous car was 15 years old when we replaced it for our current car...
As a comparison I have NEVER had any battery device, Drill/Laptop/Phone/Caravan leisure battery/Aico smoke alarm.... etc.... etc... etc... last 15years plus...
So I am not convinced that any EV would ever have an improved power source lifespan to these other common devices...

Maybe better investment in reliable public transport systems... Busses/Trains/Trams. etc..
Would actually provide a more sensible solution where many people could actually stop using cars for a daily commute to work.. So NO car.. Petrol/Diesel/Hybrid/Pure EV would actually be needed?

 

[johnb2713]

My Defender is 25 years old (1999) - do you honestly believe any of the EV cars will still be on the road in 25 years, AND be capable of towing 3.5 tonnes and going off-road.

A Defender at 25 years old, 75% of it will have rusted away and gone back into the ground.

The Defender and vehicles like it are the exception is the driving world and not everyone wants to drive one nor needs to drive one. Certainly the original Defender is in a different league to the new plastic fantastic rendering that JLR have replaced it with.

I would say yes, there is an EV that will meet your above spec the Tesla Cybertruck, freaky looking but very capable, can tow, does perform and a way better vehicle than any JLR product.

My morbid prediction is in a few years there will be a sudden dump of snow, 100's of cars stuck overnight on the motorway and people will die when their electric cars go flat.

Popular urban myth, an EV with full battery can outlast an ICE with a full tank in the stranded snow scenario, the EV of course not killing everyone with Carbon Monoxide poisoning.

The biggest shame in all of this is that we didn't continue to invest in nuclear power.

Yep in complete agreement on this one.

 

[johnb2713]

I buy a car that gives me a driving thrill not an EV appliance.

To hell with everybody else?

I have little interest in this climate jive I don't care I want to feel the life in what I drive and that means not being that dull EV driver pretending they are enjoying it. Yes some EV cars have power but it is soulless and that doesn't float my boat.

Get a drive at the likes of a Taycan or Tesla Plaid of any flavour and I would challenge your view.

 

[johnb2713]

I've only skip read some of these post...

But a MASSIVE problem that I see is that no matter what our little UK contribution may or may not possibly have on a global problem....
Basically the UK itself can do naff all to change the global situation.!!!

Absolutely correct, if we could look after our own bit then our efforts would be worthwhile but the way the rest of the world ios it's a bit like peeing in the ocean to raise the water level.

I recall listening to a green, eco, issues, Radio 4 documentary type program last year where a statistic was quoted which, if true, puts most of our petty, egocentric green contributions into a miniscule context..

The statistic was: "Over the past 10 years China has produced an equivalent amount of Co2 gasses that the UK has produced since the start of the Industrial revolution!!"

And there is the issue, we all have to work together to resolve this issue, we all need to help each other, were all in the same boat that is allegedly sinking.

Plus that UK is only responsible for 1% or less of the global carbon generated waste problems...

Youre probably right, I suppose a counter argument is that by the UK tackling it's 1% contribution, we will be developing green technology that we can sell (in reality probably give away) to other countries.

So a handful of EV's on UK roads isn't going to change much globally.

It seems to have had a very positive outcome in Norway in terms of air quality etc. Norway did have a very thriving oil industry too prior to going EV.

Perhaps people with multiple cars should just have one car maximum?

Well given that you can only drive one car at a time having multiple cars shouldn't be much of a problem.

Or stop importing bucket loads of China manufactured produce..
Electronics.... EV batteries... Solar Panels.. etc... etc... ??

We need alternative sources to achieve this.

Our previous car was 15 years old when we replaced it for our current car...
As a comparison I have NEVER had any battery device, Drill/Laptop/Phone/Caravan leisure battery/Aico smoke alarm.... etc.... etc... etc... last 15years plus...

The majority of the above batteries would most likely have been NiCAD or NiMH with LiPo entering in the later years. The leisure batteries would be Lead Acid all of which have limited lifespan. LiFEP04 or NMC products are a totally different ballgame. My BMW i3 is now approaching 100,000 miles at 7 years old, the total battery degradation is less than 5%, the degradation over the last 3 years is less than 0.4% so I'm confident it's going to outlast me.

So I am not convinced that any EV would ever have an improved power source lifespan to these other common devices...

It's a good job youre wrong on this one, why do you think manufacturers have the confidence to warrant batteries for 8 years / 100,000 miles? It's because theyre confident theyre going to last and the manufacturers deem 80% capacity as being end of life which course doesn't mean the car is dead just that the range has dropped from 160 miles to 128 miles, still perfectly useable for many people.

Maybe better investment in reliable public transport systems... Busses/Trains/Trams. etc..
Would actually provide a more sensible solution where many people could actually stop using cars for a daily commute to work..

My most hated place on earth London proves this, brilliant transport system, efficient, green etc and completely inpractical to use cars IMHO.

So NO car.. Petrol/Diesel/Hybrid/Pure EV would actually be needed?

That doesnt quite cut it, still need personal transport for the weekly shop, holidays, other journeys door to door.

 

[binky]

That has been my practice too until the one we've just bought for my wife, this time we bought new.





From Top Gear:-
"The fallacy runs that it’s always best to keep old petrol cars going because it takes a lot of energy to build a car. But actually, of the energy and CO2 a petrol car is responsible for in its lifetime, roughly four times is in the driving compared with the manufacturing. For an EV it’s about three times.
So when buying new, get one that has the lowest possible CO2 impact when driving, and that’s an electric car. Over their lifetime, EVs are responsible for far less CO2 than ICE cars. Especially because compared with early EVs, many of today’s are built in low-CO2 factories with renewable energy. So, if you’re one of these people who gets a new car every three or four years and you want to lower your CO2, go electric. Don’t cause another ICE car to be built. It’s simple.

Things have improved in 10 years. Balance point used to be 70,000 miles for an EV to be greener, I suspect that has dropped too.

But what if your existing petrol or diesel car is perfectly satisfactory? Obviously if you cause one less vehicle – of any kind – to be manufactured, you’re saving CO2 in the short term.

Agree

But if you drive a lot of miles or your car is thirsty, then sell it to someone who drives less. Getting an EV would after a very few years move you into credit. If it’s efficient and you drive little, probably hold on to it for a while.

The car does around 3000 miles a year, not a lot,

In most areas of life, the greenest thing is simply to buy less stuff and keep it for longer.

Very much my philosophy on life in general - being tight fisted is green

 

[binky]

I recall listening to a green, eco, issues, Radio 4 documentary type program last year where a statistic was quoted which, if true, puts most of our petty, egocentric green contributions into a miniscule context..

The statistic was: "Over the past 10 years China has produced an equivalent amount of Co2 gasses that the UK has produced since the start of the Industrial revolution!!"

They are also now self sufficient in renewables for domestic energy, and are working hard in industrial. India had announced a new solar farm 5 times bigger than Paris.

Plus that UK is only responsible for 1% or less of the global carbon generated waste problems...

We are responsible for 3%, because if the carbon footprint if all the stuff we buy in.

So a handful of EV's on UK roads isn't going to change much globally.
Perhaps people with multiple cars should just have one car maximum?
Or stop importing bucket loads of China manufactured produce..
Electronics.... EV batteries... Solar Panels.. etc... etc... ??

Stop buying stuff, just look at all the tat in The Range...

Our previous car was 15 years old when we replaced it for our current car...
As a comparison I have NEVER had any battery device, Drill/Laptop/Phone/Caravan leisure battery/Aico smoke alarm.... etc.... etc... etc... last 15years plus...
So I am not convinced that any EV would ever have an improved power source lifespan to these other common devices...

6000 charge cycles to 80% of original capacity. My concern is always the control.boards rather than the batteries themselves.

Maybe better investment in reliable public transport systems... Busses/Trains/Trams. etc..
Would actually provide a more sensible solution where many people could actually stop using cars for a daily commute to work.. So NO car.. Petrol/Diesel/Hybrid/Pure EV would actually be needed?

Travelling around London by public transport or cycling is a doddle. I do think ebikes need greater promotion.

 

[binky]

Just spotted this. Seven countries now generate 100% of their electricity from renewable energy https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/renewable-energy-solar-climate-targets-b2529461.html

 

[gezb]

I buy a car that gives me a driving thrill not an EV appliance. I have little interest in this climate jive I don't care I want to feel the life in what I drive and that means not being that dull EV driver pretending they are enjoying it. Yes some EV cars have power but it is soulless and that doesn't float my boat.

Have you test driven a Tesla (and I'm sure I could name many other manufacturers here)?
The performance is in the supercar bracket and with the batteries creating a very low centre of gravity, coupled with 4 wheel drive, the road holding is superb.
Btw, my other car, for fun and only for the summer, is a 2008 3.5L V6 convertible, which covers low mileage, so I speak from both sides of the EV/ICE coin.

 

[gezb]

I buy a car that gives me a driving thrill not an EV appliance. I have little interest in this climate jive I don't care I want to feel the life in what I drive and that means not being that dull EV driver pretending they are enjoying it. Yes some EV cars have power but it is soulless and that doesn't float my boat.

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