Comments on a postcard please!

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Unfortunately whilst the old school amongst us will remember the time when common sense prevailed, it seems that the modern way is you have to have the accidents before your taught common sense. Perhaps this is a result of multiculturalism and to many language barriers, or too much liberalism with wishy washy vagueness.

Or just cutting corners,

utilising less skilled staff to get the job done cheap!!

 

[pewter]

I think the firm should of had a bigger fine. Hiring unskilled eastern European labour to go up an unsafe ladder and work on electric. The boss of the firm has probably made a mint charging customers for a spark to work at high access. They should be hiring skilled workers and spending money on the correct equipment for access. I have no sympathy for all involved , only sympathy for us having our jobs taken by the unskilled to line the pockets of the boss man.

 

[ProDave]

It would appear that the normal H&S & EAWR regs are robust enough in this instance, as a prosecution was successful......

So you think this prosecution was right?

You think it was right the guy climbed the ladder without checking it was stable?

you think it was right the guy didn't test for dead, because someone else had told him it was turned off?

IMO it was the incompetent guy at the top of the ladder that should have been in the dock (assuming he made a sufficient recovery to be fit to face trial)

If that's how the law is now, then I'm bloody glad I don't employ anyone, and never want to employ anyone, because it seems having competence and common sense in no longer a requirement to be an "electrician" and I would hate to have the misfortune to employ someone lacking either and be the poor unfortunate sod in the dock being prosecuted for the incompetence of my employee.

 

[steptoe]

and the guy at the top of the ladder,

do you really think he was a competent and properly trained person on more than minimum wage and not taking work from a properly qualified to BS regulations electrician?

 

[Sharpend]

So you think this prosecution was right?You think it was right the guy climbed the ladder without checking it was stable?

you think it was right the guy didn't test for dead, because someone else had told him it was turned off?

IMO it was the incompetent guy at the top of the ladder that should have been in the dock (assuming he made a sufficient recovery to be fit to face trial)

If that's how the law is now, then I'm bloody glad I don't employ anyone, and never want to employ anyone, because it seems having competence and common sense in no longer a requirement to be an "electrician" and I would hate to have the misfortune to employ someone lacking either and be the poor unfortunate sod in the dock being prosecuted for the incompetence of my employee.

Whilst I agree in principle with you Dave, I also believe that as the employer the boss had a responsiblity to ensure that his chosen employee was competent to undertake the task asked of him. Clearly this was not the case and therefore the boss has to accept some responsiblity

Otherwise what stops him from doing it again?? Maybe next time he'll focus on quality rather than profit.

 

[shed69]

I got a jolt up the arm today. I was asked to rewires a fused spur to a boiler and was working on it the boss was down stairs the whole cu was dead but he decided to switch the down stairs sockets on or something and I received a shock. First time for me too. He said he couldn't understand why and said sorry, I told him I don't care if you think it should have been dead circuit my arm told me otherwise. First day on the job too as a mate. Still in collage doing my 2330 level 2 I know safe isolation but I put my trust in him as he is fully qualifies .

Gavin,

Firstly glad ya alive mate!!

Secondly , brilliant, 1st whack :slap :slap.... 1st of many mate.... Hopefully all of them will be tickles!! Show me a spark that hasn't had ten of them and I'll show you a liar toe rag spark...!!!!

 

[batty]

Sheddie you must be a poor spark I have only had nine.

:slap

 

[Stompy2]

Gavin........Get yourself one of those Kewtech locking off devices. They are only made of plastic and feel abit cheap but I have not come across a MCB or main swith they wouldn't lock off.

 

[ProDave]

Thanks all really great full for the advise. I'm going to test anything I'm going to work on in the future

Volt stick, or my favourite, the neon screwdriver, should be a permanent item in your pocket. That's a good sanity check that nobody has turned it back on since you isolated and tested for dead before starting work.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 13:39 ---------- Previous post was made at 13:37 ----------

Whilst I agree in principle with you Dave, I also believe that as the employer the boss had a responsiblity to ensure that his chosen employee was competent to undertake the task asked of him. Clearly this was not the case and therefore the boss has to accept some responsiblity Otherwise what stops him from doing it again?? Maybe next time he'll focus on quality rather than profit.

Yes I fully agree, the employer was guilty of either employing the wrong person, or not ensuring the person had appropriate training. The employer did NOT cause this accident, the guy up the ladder did.

So the employer was in court on the wrong charge.

 

[steptoe]

Im with Dave,

get yourself a neon Gavin, I wouldnt be without mine, and check the neutral too in case some numpty has disconnected them and flicked back on.

 

[sb_89]

Don't use a neon screwdriver, they are Absolute rubbish and unreliable, if your going to put your life in the hands of your test equipment get the best you can afford, absolute minimum would be a good set of voltage testers.

I can't believe people use neon screwdrivers, I thought they were in the realm of the DIY man .

 

[ProDave]

Don't use a neon screwdriver, they are Absolute rubbish and unreliable, if your going to put your life in the hands of your test equipment get the best you can afford, absolute minimum would be a good set of voltage testers. I can't believe people use neon screwdrivers, I thought they were in the realm of the DIY man .

I use a volt meter to test for dead. My neon screwdriver is a backup for a sanity check. I trust it a LOT more than I would trust a volt stick. Like any "instrument" you need to test your neon screwdriver (or volt stick or whatever) frequently to make sure it still works.

As long as you test with SOMETHING before touching it, that's the main point, and what the "victim" in this case totally failed to do.

 

[sb_89]

Volts sticks are non contact for a start and you don't put any mechanical strain on them when using them. As a secondary 'sanity' thing I guess there alright though

 

[steptoe]

volt sticks will glow on just about anything! rub one on your arm

they are the DIY tool out there, its mostly tools that have them swinging everywhere.!

a neon screwdriver properly used and looked after is invaluable in fault finding.

 

[Ben piner]

It's the guy up the ladders fault.. End of... No one in there right mind would go up a ladder on top of boxes and would never stick your finger on something you were just told is dead.. Pure common sense. But in today's world common sense is not that common...

 

[ProDave]

Volts sticks are non contact for a start

Which is why they are next to useless if you are checking a dead junction box with another live circuit passing close by.

A proper volt meter with probes, or even a neon screwdriver, will tell you exactly which terminals are live and which are not.

But the main point of this thread is you must use SOMETHING to check they are dead.

never ASSUME. Remember. ASSUME makes an ASS of U and ME

 

[Doc Hudson]

It's the guy up the ladders fault.. End of... No one in there right mind would go up a ladder on top of boxes and would never stick your finger on something you were just told is dead.. Pure common sense. But in today's world common sense is not that common...

Yes I fully agree, the employer was guilty of either employing the wrong person, or not ensuring the person had appropriate training. The employer did NOT cause this accident, the guy up the ladder did.So the employer was in court on the wrong charge.

As is often the case, speculation about blame is apportioned with only limited facts, I would be inclined to think that the employer had some legally qualified persons acting in his defence. But as "Westminster Magistrates' Court heard yesterday (7 March) that his employer Fras Contractors Limited, managed by Adam Fras, could and should have done more to protect the worker as he attempted to repair an external flood light." it would appear that the employer did have some legal duties that he failed to discharge with regard to the H&S operations of his company. If it had been the wrong person or the wrong charge I am confident that the defence solicitors would have been able to prove his innocence. Yet he was supervising the work. "The work was supervised by Adam Fras, a registered electrical engineer who knew how to make the circuit safe but neglected to take appropriate action"

Doc H.

 

[sb_89]

Steps I don't want to play devils advocate here but neon screwdrivers will light up at about 50v, my volts tick is rated between 200 and a 1000v. If your ok letting your body make the circuit then fine, but it only takes shorted resister and your gonners ! Find a lake and chuck it in lol

 

[steptoe]

sb, but you would trust a glow stick and a battery that lights up at almost anything? including static? and more..... so Im not sure how yours only lights up at >200V and can actually determine exactly which cable has current present.

the reason most NEONs go faulty is through poor housekeeping, and folks abusing them, I have never had a belt through a faulty NEON, and the only reason I have ever replaced any if through losing them.

BTW, how do you think volt sticks work then?

everyone is entitled to their own opinion sb, mine is firmly in the NEONs are good camp,

although, if you look at a review I done a while back you will notice that I dont use it so much now,

but it has came out of retirement more recently due to hunting for broken Neutrals, something a voltstick is admirably totally and utterly useless for.

 

[sb_89]

I use a volt stick very much like you use your neon , as a secondary. Each to their own, so long as you at least prove its dead somehow !