Commercial PIR question (faulty CU)

[ProDave]

PIR today on a shop premises.

All okay, except one of the CU's is faulty.

It's an old metal wylex, originally with rewireables, but it's been upgraded with plug in MCB's.

The trouble is, the main black moulding has cracked, so one of the screw on insulators (the bit the fuses or mcb's plug into) has nothing to screw into. So if you unplug that particular MCB, there's nothing to stop the insulator coming out and exposing live terminals.

I think it should be a code 1 and recommend a CU change. Do you agree?

Also for a CU change, being commercial, all wired in conduit or surface, an I correct in saying there's no need for an RCD?

I probably would fit a new single RCD board anyway (only 4 circuits), just curious about it. Having PIR'd it, I know there are no issues with IR or anything else that would upset an RCD.

 

[Andy™]

Also for a CU change, being commercial, all wired in conduit or surface, an I correct in saying there's no need for an RCD?

what does your PIR say about (lack of) RCD's? there is your answer.

 

[ProDave]

what does your PIR say about (lack of) RCD's? there is your answer.

Nothing, because a PIR can not demand an installation be upgraded as a result of a revision of the wiring regs. If an installation complied with the edition of the regs in force when it was done, then you cannot force someone to upgrade it.

The most you could give any such non compliance would be a code 4, and that does not necessarily mean any remedial work is needed.

 

[gselectrical]

Nothing, because a PIR can not demand an installation be upgraded as a result of a revision of the wiring regs. If an installation complied with the edition of the regs in force when it was done, then you cannot force someone to upgrade it.The most you could give any such non compliance would be a code 4, and that does not necessarily mean any remedial work is needed.

You could mention it without "demanding an installation upgrade"?

GS

 

[Andy™]

you really dont have a clue. if your PIR has a code 4 for lack of RCD, then its obviously needed to currect regs. and so if your doing work, it will need the RCD

 

[ProDave]

you really dont have a clue. if your PIR has a code 4 for lack of RCD' date=' then its obviously needed to currect regs. and so if your doing work, it will need the RCD[/quote']So the consensus is, if the CU was in okay condition it would be a code 4 for lack of rcd, but as it needs work, it will have to have an RCD.

 

[Andy™]

So the consensus is, if the CU was in okay condition it would be a code 4 for lack of rcd, but as it needs work, it will have to have an RCD.

maybe you should quit doing PIR's.

 

[ProDave]

maybe you should quit doing PIR's.

Maybe I should quit asking questions expecting a sensible answer.

 

[Andy™]

Maybe I should quit asking questions expecting a sensible answer.

if you were competent, then you would not be asking, because your answer would be on your PIR. think about it.

 

[ProDave]

if you were competent' date=' then you would not be asking, because your answer would be on your PIR. think about it.[/quote']Then nobody would ever ask a question on this forum because everybody would know everything.

 

[kme]

I think what Andy was getting at is that, if someone has the necessary experience to carry out a PIR of a particular property; they would have either ignored the lack of RCD because it isn`t required, or coded it because it is.

It may have commplied with an earlier version of the regs; but a PIR is the state of the install, with reference to the current regulations. Therefore if you haven`t made an observation regarding lack of RCD, you didn`t consider it necessary for this install.

Personally, to be honest, I don`t think you`ve actually provided sufficient information for such a determination to be made by any of us. i.e. if its a TT, you may need the RCD. If there is a canteen with a kettle / toaster, you may consider the workers who use those items require RCD protection on the socket outlets, or you may consider them covered by EAWR `89 - different people consider this differently.

 

[ProDave]

Okay, here's the full details so someone can advise.

This is a furniture shop. At some point the building was split in two, but now it's one shop.

Main 3 phase incomer in cupboard at the front of the shop to old MEM switch fused isolator. TNS earth.

One phase fused as submain to the back end of the shop, which has most of the circuits, but that CU at that end is more modern, and everything is okay. that's where the WC, office and canteen are. This rear CU also provides power to the computer and till.

Back to the the front of the shop. A second phase is fused from the switch fuse to this 4 way wylex box. It has just 4 circuits. 6A lighting, and three 15A radial socket circuits.

The sockets are few in number and around the perimeter of the shop floor. In fact they are all hidden behind display furniture so really inaccessible. Only a couple are actually used to provide power to some lighting in display cabinets.

So the sockets are not really "used". They certainly won't be used for general power, and most certainly not for outside power.

So my understanding is there is no need for RCD protection, remember they are surface wired in steel conduit.

IF I were wiring it today, I would use an RCD CU as it's just good practice. But my original question was is an RCD actually needed? And my understanding in a commercial situation that depends upon the expected level of competence of the user.

And nobody has answered the other question. Am I right coding a damaged CU that could expose live terminals as a code 1. I only ask that because it has plug in breakers instead of fuses, you just might argue that nobody should be unplugging them so the danger will not arise (unlike a fuse where it would be very reasonable to expect them to be unplugged if the fuse wire blew so there would be no doubt it was a code 1)

 

[Andy™]

So the sockets are not really "used". They certainly won't be used for general power, and most certainly not for outside power.

So my understanding is there is no need for RCD protection, remember they are surface wired in steel conduit.

And nobody has answered the other question. Am I right coding a damaged CU that could expose live terminals as a code 1. I only ask that because it has plug in breakers instead of fuses, you just might argue that nobody should be unplugging them so the danger will not arise (unlike a fuse where it would be very reasonable to expect them to be unplugged if the fuse wire blew so there would be no doubt it was a code 1)

have a read of 411.3.3

as for CU, id go with 2. its not an exposed live part at the moment (since its held in by MCB), but its still dangerous

 

[ProDave]

have a read of 411.3.3as for CU' date=' id go with 2. its not an exposed live part at the moment (since its held in by MCB), but its still dangerous[/quote']

I'm aware of the reg.

It all comes down to your judgement of whether the person who might use these rather inaccessible sockets are "skilled or instructed persons"

They are clearly not going to be used by the cleaner for a vacuum cleaner, or the general public.

They will be used by shop workers setting up displays. So what's your call, are these skilled or instructed?

The safe way is to assume not and fit an RCD, but I'm interested in other people's interpretations.

There's an interesting addition proposed in the forthcoming amendment. If that proposal is adopted (and I've lost track of the consensus of what amendments will and won't be included), then an alteration to an existing socket circuit does not need an RCD if the designer is satisfied there is no increased risk from the alteration. So if that amendment comes into force, then the CU change would not require the circuits be upgraded to RCD protected regardless of who used them. Or am I miss reading that proposed amendment.

If so then that surely signals no need to fit an RCD when I change the CU?

 

[Andy™]

They are clearly not going to be used by the cleaner for a vacuum cleaner, or the general public.

They will be used by shop workers setting up displays. So what's your call, are these skilled or instructed?

sure about general public? maybe not in your case, but in other situations (cafe's etc), in sure the odd person would sneak a laptop charger into one)

and for general staff of the shop, i would very much doubt they are 'skilled', and i doubt each new member receives 'instruction'.

 

[sellers]

I beleive that in a commercial installation anything that is plugged in should have its pat test label and that whatever action is taking place should be properly assesed by the owner/manager. Therefore any items being plugged in will be electrically sound and any action of for example an employee jigsawing some furnature should have a proper risk assesment done. This is why RCD's are exempt from certain commercial situations.

Whereas in a domestic situation, joe blogs uses his 40year old bodged extension lead to cut his hedges with no thought of safety.

personally I would weigh up the possible dangers yourself and see if there is a need for an RCD, or more likely an RCBO on the affected circuit.

 

[Andy™]

so your prepared to not install an RCD becuase the equipment plugged in 'should' be PA tested and RA carried out?

as much as you can make RA's etc, you can never prevent all accidents.

and some of the stuff ive came accross whilst PA testing is shocking

about a year ago had to PA test some items in a workshop. 3 out of 5 drills failed for damaged flex. 2 of them that failed were being used at the time. the staff using them had to stop/go elsewhere for a few mins so i could have the drill. they than got the drill back with a lovely fail label and removed fuse.

some of the other portable equipment wasnt much better either

 

[sellers]

[quote name='Andy

 

[sparkytim]

My understanding after discussion with my NIC Inspecting Engineer on this is;

Skilled means in house ELECTRICALLY skilled, Electrician, Electrical Engineer SUPERVISING this installation.

An INSTRUCTED PERSON is any one in CONTROL of this installation that has been INSTRUCTED by a SKILLED PERSON as to how to ensure safe use of the installation and prevent damage to it.

I have produced a Document of instructions for Office Managers etc

"All work to be carried out by Electrically Competent Person, All appliances to have current PAT label, etc " to enable them to become an INSRUCTED person and meet the requirement.

 

[Andy™]

I have produced a Document of instructions for Office Managers etc

"All work to be carried out by Electrically Competent Person, All appliances to have current PAT label, etc " to enable them to become an INSRUCTED person and meet the requirement.

dont forget 'dont stick any nails or screws into any walls either'