Consumer unit change and testing.

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Specs, where do I start???

You are very intelligent, but let's try stick to the facts. :)

Parallel Paths

If the circuit you are testing is completely disconnected at the fusbox end..

i.e.

you had a Live Neutral and Earth conductor all dead and resting in your hand..

There will be NO parallel paths because the CPC in question is open circuit ..
Not everybody tests this way.

Indeed, not all courses teach you to test this way.

Some people take out the line conductor and connect it to the earth bar.

Some croc-clip between MCB and earth bar.

In fact, GN3, which we both like quoting, on page 35, shows a 'temporary link' inserted between the MCB and the Earth Bar for test method 1.

The proper way, of course, is to test R1 + R2 before terminating the circuit into the CU, and connect together as you suggest - isolated L & CPC.

A periodic is supposed to be un-obtrusive i.e. not start disconnecting circuits etc. unnecessarily - maybe thats why they don't insist on a R1 + R2 measurement...............slightly different on a board change, maybe.

I'm sure there are other methods as well - these could all introduce parallel paths to a test that isn't required anyway.

R1+R2 Not even mentioned in the regs?????

Page 341.. for a start maybe?

model forms Schedule of test results

column 6 R1+R2

column 7 R2

* Astrix comment.. "complete either 6 or 7"
Yes, we know it's on the 'Schedule of Test Results' - we fill them in often enough - and the regs gives an example of the form - but it's not mentioned in the Regulations (Just to be clear....The numbered regulations)

Guidance Note 3.... (Which is part of the regs)
Guidance Note 3 is not part of the regs.

It is a guidance note on Inspection and Testing, giving explanations of what the Regulations require, and methods of inspection and test which may be used to satisfy the Regulations - although you are entitled to use other methods as well.

It refers to the Regulations, but it isn't part of them.

For instance - you don't have to measure Zs the way they tell you to.....it's not a regulation.

Equally effective methods include (R1+R2)+Ze
Not if you don't measure R1 + R2 in the first place. :)

And, as it doesn't state anywhere that a measurement of R1 + R2 is required, why would you?

You could 'wander lead' the whole installation to confirm 'Continuity of CPC'.

You didn't have to be so pedantic - I was trying to give a couple of people who weren't sure, a rough guide to the tests, and trying to get them out of the R1 + R2 syndrome.

A lot of people have this 'gotta do an R1 + R2 test' going on.

I included the quote from the ESC Best Practise Guide, so they can make their own minds up on the required tests, but I certainly wouldn't be wasting time doing R1 + R2 tests on PIRs or board changes. :|

 
but I certainly wouldn't be wasting time doing R1 + R2 tests on PIRs or board changes. :|
I would, and do. :)

But as pointed out, it is a choice of two. Either R1+R2 OR R2 NOT Both. This is also stated on the cert.

But each to their own. :)

 
Guidance Note 3 is not part of the regs.you don't have to measure Zs the way they tell you to.....it's not a regulation.
:|

I am now getting the tip-ex out erasing text on the front page of my guidance notes that state..

"BS7671:2008 wiring regulations seventeen edition, requirements for an electrical instltion..."

I guess I was wrong then using GN3 to pass the 2391 Inspection & testing exam?????

Despite the fact this is what is recommend as the guidance...

Here's another thought to chew over......

Do you think your "parallel paths" only apply to reading R1+R2..

is your earth loop meter immune to low readings due to parallel paths?

So either way you want to disconnect parallel paths out of the situation whichever method you use... No?

Also... have you considered reading regulation 612.9 Earth fault loop impedance..

Which also guides you to further information in Appendix 14..

thats on page 361...

where it talks about measuring the Zs and if it is bordering on the 0.8 rule of thumb threshold to use a more precise assessment by:-

"measuring Line and CPC resistances" OR 'R1+R2' as we like to call ity...

and this IS in the red book BTW.

But then to some people an Appendix probably isn't part of the regs either? :(

As yet another viewpoint....

the NICEIC periodic inspection & testing book actually recommends using the R1+R2 +Ze method for calculating Zs on circuits without socket outlets!

thats Page 296 of this book..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Domestic-Periodic-Inspection-Testing-Reporting/dp/1906091064/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1286716498&sr=8-1

(which just to clarify is Periodic.. not Initial inspection & test!)

Remember this is a CU change situation..

ALL of the wires at some point in the day are going to be disconnected and free for easy peasy dead testing.. all your R1+R2's Ins res etc..

SIMPLES!

By your own admission there are various acceptable ways of testing..

But to claim that someone who is using a perfectly acceptable method is wrong cus they don't do it your way or claim they don't know what they are doing such as your post #2 ..

Sounds to me like he was unsure of testing requirements himself.
is a bit daft, possibly a tad arrogant to say the least...

But then No good listening to me cuz I am that nutter who considers the Guidance notes to be part of the overall package called the wiring regulations!

:p :C

 
and trying to get them out of the R1 + R2 syndrome.A lot of people have this 'gotta do an R1 + R2 test' going on.
TBH...

think theres only one person with a "R1+R2" syndrome going on here?

Others just follow the good advice given in the various Regs & Guidance notes.

:( :|

:C

 
I an getting totally confused to what is going on here as far as I am aware on a cu change you are changing protective device so the current characteristics are changing for the device installed unless its like for like. You have got to test the earth fault loop of each circuit to ensure if there was a fault the device would trip. Now I know it is a good idea to do an insulation test because you don't want the Rcd or Rcbo to trip straight away or when you leave the job. Doing an R2 test will not give you your earth fault loop and R1+R2 plus ze may work but personally I would rather really on the correct instrument and use a loop tester but I am probably old fashioned. Generally on cu changes the only results I put on certificate is earth fault loop as thats all I am interested in.

 
Others just follow the good advice given in the various Regs & Guidance notes.
OK then - GN3, Pg 73, 3.10.2 Tests to be made, Table 3.3

Protective Conductor Continuity - Between the earth terminal of distribution boards to the following exposed conductive parts:

Socket outlet earth connections.

Accessible exposed conductive parts of current using equipment and accessories.

No mention of R1 + R2 measurement

Earth Fault Loop Impedance - At the following positions:

Origin of the installation

Distribution boards

Accessible socket outlets

Extremity of radial circuits

And unless they mean that you should 'stand' at these positions whilst you 'calculate' Zs, I 'm guessing they want you to measure it - regardless of what the NICEIC say:)

Page 74 - half way down:

The use of an Earth Fault Loop Impedance tester is often the most convenient way of 'continuity testing'

As for the electrian doing the testing with the OP:

I didn't claim he was wrong, or that he didn't know what he was doing, I said that he didn't understanding the 'testing requirements' for a board change.

He was IR testing individual circuits and measuring R1 + R2 at light switches - both unnecessary.

Some people, unfortunately, run through tests because they are listed in the book, without actually knowing what they are testing for - and that's not arrogance, it's a fact. :)

 
I would, and do. :) But as pointed out, it is a choice of two. Either R1+R2 OR R2 NOT Both. This is also stated on the cert.

But each to their own. :)
It's a choice of three, actually, Admin - you also have N/A (not applicable), which in this instance, a measurement of either isn't applicable. :)

 
So, what happens and who would pay for any remedial works needed upon the changing of the CCU from an old 3036 to a 17th ED board when the new board starts nuisance tripping from a fault within the property not realised before?

When changing CCU's for customers we always test the installation first to guarantee that we aren't fitting a board into an installation that requires work.

I'm not saying its the right or wrong way but it saves a LOT of grief testing first before replacing the CCU.

 
So, what happens and who would pay for any remedial works needed upon the changing of the CCU from an old 3036 to a 17th ED board when the new board starts nuisance tripping from a fault within the property not realised before?When changing CCU's for customers we always test the installation first to guarantee that we aren't fitting a board into an installation that requires work.

I'm not saying its the right or wrong way but it saves a LOT of grief testing first before replacing the CCU.
i always make it clear that any fault finding is chargeable, otherwise circuit with fault will not be reconnected

 
So, what happens and who would pay for any remedial works needed upon the changing of the CCU from an old 3036 to a 17th ED board when the new board starts nuisance tripping from a fault within the property not realised before?When changing CCU's for customers we always test the installation first to guarantee that we aren't fitting a board into an installation that requires work.

I'm not saying its the right or wrong way but it saves a LOT of grief testing first before replacing the CCU.
I agree, mate, some of the testing needs to be done prior to the swap - e.g. IR test of the installation.

This is one of my points - you don't then need to IR test each individual circuit after the swap. :)

 
As for the electrian doing the testing with the OP:I didn't claim he was wrong, or that he didn't know what he was doing, I said that he didn't understanding the 'testing requirements' for a board change.

He was IR testing individual circuits and measuring R1 + R2 at light switches - both unnecessary.

Some people, unfortunately, run through tests because they are listed in the book, without actually knowing what they are testing for - and that's not arrogance, it's a fact. :)
Both unnecessary??????????????? :eek:

:| :_|

(unless the electrician on site considers them appropriate! :) )

TBH it sounds to me like you are the one following listed instructions without applying individual installation circumstances into deciding the most appropriate testing methods!

such as your quotes implying the use of R1+R2 to establish Zs, or individually testing circuit insulation resistance tests when doing a board change are unnecessary.....

Consider... IF after doing your combined insulation resistance test you find your combined reading is a bit low.... what do you do....

DO THEM INDIVIDUALLY!!!

So if you already happen to have all of your circuit wires disconnected from one board prior to connecting onto a new board there is no loss in checking that circuit before you reconnect it.. less than 30 seconds work maybe?

Saves having to take em back off again IF you have a low combined reading NO?

And we all know from readings of testing individual circuits, we can very easily suss out what the overall parallel resistance of the whole installation will be with a bit of simple maths.. we do get these sort of questions in the C&G exams ;)

So there is no valid reason to suggest that the electrician with the_mouse was carrying out any unnecessary actions.

As for your assertions that Table 3.3. has no mention of R1+R2..

well of course it wont...

It is a table giving a brief introductory list as to suitable tests to be made..

You wont get the full detail of ALL possible acceptable methods in this table

I wont insult you intelligence telling you to read the paragraph above the table...

Which as it happens does suggest the guidance in section 2.7 are useful reference methods for undertaking the various tests required...

And greater detail is also followed in section 3.10.3 which includes my earlier quote suggesting Earth Loop Measurement OR determined by other effective measures are suitable for obtaining Zs!

Unsure why you suddenly bring up the topic of 'Continuity of protective conductors' ?

anyhow.. your extract..

The use of an Earth Fault Loop Impedance tester is often the most convenient way of 'continuity testing'
Is obviously a valid point when taken in context of the preceding paragraphs of 3.10.3 (a)...

namely situations where it is NOT possible to de-energise an installtion... Which IHMO is not a board change situation...

Because when I do a CU change..

at some point the whole installation is dead, not energized, resting its conductors, open circuit from the supply source, disconnected etc..etc..

So whilst the installation is in this state it is very very very simple to test your R1+R2 and in the process get info for your Zs and continuity of conductors

if you so wish...

The Bottom line is:-

There are numerous methods for carrying out sufficient tests to verify the integrity of an intalltion...

the testing electrician will use his knowledge of the installation to assess the most appropriate methods for that particular situation...

Using the various guidance form the Regs, Guidance notes, OSG and other such manuals and booklets published by various contracting bodies...

I can understand quite reasonably why the electrician that the_mouse refers to in the OP may have chosen to do some tests in the way he did....

And whether obtaining Zs by measurement OR calculation you still have to be aware of erroneous readings due to parallel paths by BOTH methods!

Continuity of CPC can be verified by R1+R2, Earth Loop measurement, or long lead lead..

sometime long lead can cause hazards

earth loop can be hazardous on some live fittings trying to get you probes onto suitable live contacts

R1 + R2 can be tricky to read cuz of painted over fittings and you may not be able to damage the decor

etc..

etc..

etc..

Common sense and knowledge of the installation will allow you to chose the best methods...

Whether they are clearly written in a book

or implied from using combinations of other methods...

I don't think that Mouse's electrician was aimlessly following listed instructions..

Or that he was unsure of his testing methods.

And it is acceptable to use measurement OR R1+R2..

and/or a combination of both on the same certificate !!!

And just for the record.. iF you can't read R1+R2...

by definition its gonna be hard to measure ZS...

as 'L' & 'E' contacts of the circuit have to have probes got onto them one way or another! ;)

:put the kettle on

 
So, what happens and who would pay for any remedial works needed upon the changing of the CCU from an old 3036 to a 17th ED board when the new board starts nuisance tripping from a fault within the property not realised before?When changing CCU's for customers we always test the installation first to guarantee that we aren't fitting a board into an installation that requires work.

I'm not saying its the right or wrong way but it saves a LOT of grief testing first before replacing the CCU.
Customer ALWAYS pays for any work you do..

unless you are a charity or want to be out of business very quick!

Nuisance tripping will be a faulty appliance connected somewhere..

because you will have verified ALL of the cables are good before reconnecting!

Some times with an old wylex wooden backed jobbie it can be a bit of a sod to get access to circuits and cables to test prior to changing CU..

So it can be easier to do test while the "Bonnet Is Up" so to speak..

easy access to conductors etc...

(guess this is what mouses spark was doing?)

To consider some basic facts and probabilites...

If you picked a random sample of 1000 domestic properties and did a full PIR on them all...

[*]I would guess that 80% of all circuits on all installations would test out good and could go straight onto a new CU without a problem.

[*]Any decent Spark worth his salt could identify and/or fix most of the other problems whilst doing the CU change work..

[*]There may be the odd 1% or 2% of problems that need return visits for further investigation and remedial works

[*]Providing you proceed correctly it is not hard to do a successful CU change on budget... unless of course you are offering to do it for

 
This could go on for months. ; \

you read what I write......then pick a load of holes in it

I read what you reply, then pick a load of holes in it

Anyway, I've done you the courtesy of reading your reply.

Some valid points, some I could contradict - but I can't be bothered now, because we could probably go on forever, and just start getting more and more personal in what we say:)

So I'll leave it there.

I will say one thing, though, it's funny how only friends of friends get 'thanked' for their points on here - regardless of how good or relative the point really is.

And god forbid anyone contradicts one of the 'clique' and corrects something they have said, (as I have with a couple of people in this thread), - you don't get a thanks, a reply or a 'kiss my a**e'.

It's starting to get on my nerves.

Anyway, Specs, I do enjoy our discussions - just try not to get too personal with your replies. ;)

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Anyway, Specs, I do enjoy our discussions - just try not to get to personal with your replies. ;)
:Salute

Me personal.. :innocent

I can't even spell it! :innocent ]:)

All of us who are grown up enough to post also have to be grown up enough to accept others opinions...

Of which we can choose to discus the various sides of an argument or just walk away and not reply..

I disagree with some of your points...

you disagree with some of mine...

thats how life works I believe....

If everyone agreed all the time we would all be the most boring farts with no real valid contribution to put into society (virtual or real).

Hopefully some of the others just reading will see two varying opinions..

with some suitable references for their own reading.

Then they can make up their own minds !

No doubt..

you will continue doing your work the way you see fit...

and I will continue doing my work the way I see fit...

maybe some others can pick up the odd bit of guidance that helps them as well!

not sure what you are getting at with the 'thanks'..

(you got three on post#12? ?:| )

TBH I was perfectly happy before the Thanks button even appeared on the forum...

but there you go its there and people will press as they see fit... :|

anyway

at this juncture I will now go to Admins Bar..

and get a couple of pints of KME's beer...

GuinnessGuinness

there you go...

I bought you a beer..

don't say i don't give you nothing!

]:) :x

:D

 
Well guys, thanks very much for your input, two things are clear

1) There are a number of ways to test after a board change.

2) There is a massive hole in my electrical education and think its fair to say im at the bottom of a large steep leaning curve.

best regards

mouse

 
not sure what you are getting at with the 'thanks'..

(you got three on post#12? ?:| )

TBH I was perfectly happy before the Thanks button even appeared on the forum...

but there you go its there and people will press as they see fit... :|
I am debating whether or not to get rid of it.

 
If it is causing any issues - remove it.

The sccobing system is there, which does the same job......

Personally, I thank anyone who either posts an explaination of something I`ve previously said, or concurs with my POV when I`m maybe "out on a limb".

I take no notice of who actually posted it, I am thanking the poster for their comment, not for being the poster. I think that makes sense??

 
I am debating whether or not to get rid of it.
Please DON'T. It serves a purpose like Steps and KME say. Showing that you agree with the poster or clear acknowledgement of a 'thanks'.

Saves millions of +1, +2, +1,000,000 etc and is visible and transparent to all.

I do think the scoobs could be better used but I don't like the anonymity of the system.

I would almost like it to go one step further and have a thumbs up, thumbs down and thanks - visible to all who voted what!

:)

 
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