different ways of wiring lights

[Larnacaman]

H&S has achieved very little since the 80's, apart from making working life progressively more difficult, and making exports far more expensive than they ever need be!!

Most of the so-called H&S experts that dream up these ridiculous and in the main pointless and often unworkable rules and regulations, have never held any form of tool in their hands. .....Let alone try and do anything with that tool

.

Thank God we don't have these morons on overseas projects, cause the projects would never get finished. We have safety officers yes, ....but none from the UK, or EU Europe!! Mainly Aussie/Kiwi's, Yanks or Canadians... and there bad enough ...lol!!!

As for wiring high lighting points ...well they had to be wired in the first place, so what's the big difference working on those lighting points later on, they will still need relamping at the very least?? Neutrals in the switch boxes just means another unnecessary joint. Not sure why some here think that the 3 plate system is a bad one, it's the most convenient for multi core cables, such as T&E almost exclusively used in domestic installations etc.

Not sure why the UK hasn't made more use of pulse aux relays for lighting circuits as there really useful in this particular area, and you certainly don't need neutrals at light switches either... Again, you will never see lighting circuits fed via switch boxes on any project based contracts, unless it's absolutely necessary!! Seems to be, ,that being convenient for adding a lighting point, overides all else, amongst those in favour of having neutral conductors at light switch boxes. Whereas i can't think of a single publication that i've ever read, generally encouraging this practise!!!!

As to Steptoes video, ....All i can say is, i hope those guy's are rally well paid, i know i couldn't do it, and i suspect i'm amongst the majority too!!!

I wonder if there are any Engineers that go up to check those guy's work?? ...I think Not myself!! Makes you wonder what the H&S would come up with (or have come up with) to cover these guy's working practise!!!! :run

 

[sellers]

I think after going round the houses, the bottom line is whatevers easiest at the time, and there is no legislation as far as I'm aware that would consider one option to be more favorable than another due to DIYers as anyone touching electrics has to be competant!

And I would like to add that stating something is bad practice when it clearly isn't, is very misleading to the lesser experienced. You'll have them re-wiring peoples homes because all feeds are at switches! Personally I don't like the spider method as I hate JB's! If its fault finding its always a JB and its either very well hidden or under madams tiled floor.

 

[Sidewinder]

The guy that made that video got sacked over it and narrowly escaped prosecution by the OHSA.

Free climbing has been illegal over there for a few years now.

 

[Larnacaman]

Sellers,

Why, ....do you think that neutral conductors are ''Not'' seen on Project contacts??

Maybe because it IS seen as a ''bad practice'' by the electrical specifying Engineers??

---------- AUTO MERGE Post added at 21:33 ---------- Previous post was at 21:21 ----------

Really?? So exactly how do they get up to that antenna now then?? They free climb, that's how, because that's the only way to get to the job place!!! No-matter what rules are in place, probably the same goes on in UK too.....

Take a look at the linesmen that work on LIVE 1/2 million plus volt transmission lines, hopping off of helicopters straight onto those lines too then shimmying along them....

There are ALWAYS going to be exceptions, where H&S have to take a back seat, cause there isn't any other way of getting the job done at this time!!!

 

[m4tty]

At college we were taught both ways and was told to use whichever was easiest. Ive just wired a loft light on an extension ive just done and fed the switch as it was most convenient. Was that bad practice?

 

[Andy™]

Really?? So exactly how do they get up to that antenna now then?? similar to the vid. but they use 2 lanyards, with 1 connected at all timesThey free climb, that's howthey shouldnt be, because that's the only way to get to the job place!!! see first bit of red... No-matter what rules are in place, probably the same goes on in UK too..... Take a look at the linesmen that work on LIVE 1/2 million plus volt transmission lines, hopping off of helicopters straight onto those lines too then shimmying along them.... complete with a lanyard attached to catch them should they fall...

There are ALWAYS going to be exceptions, where H&S have to take a back seat, cause there isn't any other way of getting the job done at this time!!!

my red

 

[sellers]

matty no its not bad practice, can anyone explain why a neutral at a switch is bad practice? not who says it is but why?

 

[Larnacaman]

Matty,

They Actually taught and told you to feed L-N via the switch box??

All i can say to you in that case, ..is that things have certainly changed since my time of training!!! And yet again, not for the better either!!

---------- AUTO MERGE Post added at 22:01 ---------- Previous post was at 21:45 ----------

Andy,

Sure you can use lanyards, but if you listen to the video again it's going to take them all day to get up there, let alone coming down again. They were using lanyards in the film, but as and when they needed them, ....not when someone else that has never been there, tells them to use them....

Wasn't talking about not using lanyards on the transmission lines of course they do. I'm talking about the object of working live at ultra high voltages. There is a critical point where these guys step of the choppers onto the live lines. They also have to bring the chopper chassis to the same potential, before they step off the chopper, then disconnect before the chopper can leave the step off location....

 

[m4tty]

Matty,They Actually taught and told you to feed L-E via the switch box??

All i can say to you in that case, ..is that things have certainly changed since my time of training!!! And yet again, not for the better either!!

Yes mate they taught 3 plate and feed the switch methods and taught to use whichever was easiest. I dont see a problem with it mate can you explain why you think its bad. Cheersut the kettle on

 

[batty]

These threads are getting ridiculous how can anybody say having a neutral at a switch is bad practice or not the correct way of doing it. I either three plate if its single fittings in rooms but may wire into switches on new builds especially if downlights are involved. Rewires with conduits or capping will be three plate unless they are having downlights then I may use accessible jb's. I will never use jb's on new builds why would you need to its just asking for trouble even maintanance free joints. Every job has to be judged on easy installation and easy maintanance to me that is either three plate or wiring to switches that way you have not got to crawl around in lofts or cupboards to find jb's if there is a problem. As for the height issue you have got to get up to the fitting to change lamps but if it is that high wiring from switch is better because you will then not have a permanant live a light fitting which has to be a better thing.

 

[Larnacaman]

Batty,

Already have, it is just creating more ''unnecessary'' joints into the lighting system, joints that don't need to be there... There should be no joints on any hard wired circuit, only ''connections''!!!

If it's not a bad working practice, then someone please tell me, why they don't allow feeding/looping thru the light switches on project contracts?? Because i can assure you, you'll never see that wiring practice on such installations.

 

[steptoe]

I think after going round the houses, the bottom line is whatevers easiest at the time, and there is no legislation as far as I'm aware that would consider one option to be more favorable than another due to DIYers as anyone touching electrics has to be competant!And I would like to add that stating something is bad practice when it clearly isn't, is very misleading to the lesser experienced. You'll have them re-wiring peoples homes because all feeds are at switches! Personally I don't like the spider method as I hate JB's! If its fault finding its always a JB and its either very well hidden or under madams tiled floor.

poorly designed spider system that would use a JB, more a DIYish kinda job that.

adaptable box fitted with a DIN rail in a central location in the loft is a good start. downstairs its normally just beside the CU,

I dont use this method all the time, only when the job justifies it, similar to Ring vs Radials.

The guy that made that video got sacked over it and narrowly escaped prosecution by the OHSA.Free climbing has been illegal over there for a few years now.

really, I thought it said on the video that it was specifically allowed by H&S due to the nature of the work and training.?

BTW, my mate sent me that video as I had been moaning about the height of the flats we had been working on,

heights dont bother me much, but I have a really severe case of being terrified of falling.!

---------- AUTO MERGE Post added at 19:39 ---------- Previous post was at 19:38 ----------

Batty,Already have, it is just creating more ''unnecessary'' joints into the lighting system, joints that don't need to be there... There should be no joints on any hard wired circuit, only ''connections''!!!

If it's not a bad working practice, then someone please tell me, why they don't allow feeding/looping thru the light switches on project contracts?? Because i can assure you, you'll never see that wiring practice on such installations.

can you define this phrase for me please.?

 

[batty]

Batty,Already have, it is just creating more ''unnecessary'' joints into the lighting system, joints that don't need to be there... There should be no joints on any hard wired circuit, only ''connections''!!!

If it's not a bad working practice, then someone please tell me, why they don't allow feeding/looping thru the light switches on project contracts?? Because i can assure you, you'll never see that wiring practice on such installations.

So the connections in the three plate are not joints is that what you are saying?

 

[Larnacaman]

Yes.... any contract that has a contractual set of specifications. Not just for the electrical element but for all trades and systems, throughout the project.

 

[batty]

Yes.... any contract that has a contractual set of specifications. Not just for the electrical element but for all trades and systems, throughout the project.

Your wasted as a sparks you should be a lawyer.

 

[steptoe]

Yes.... any contract that has a contractual set of specifications. Not just for the electrical element but for all trades and systems, throughout the project.

about 90% of my jobs then.

and,

there are some of them that have neutrals not only passing through switches, but connected/jointed in them too.

does your extra connections also extend to DP switches for outside lights then? or how do you do them without having the neutrals at the switch?

some of our 'project contracts' actually specify that we must use DP switches for outside lights,

perhaps I need to tell them that no 'real' job would allow neutrals at the switch as it is considered bad practice and DIYish.

 

[Larnacaman]

Batty,

I haven't been a sparks since i was 23. And yes, i'm afraid these days a lot of my time is taken up by all the other stuff that's involved in running projects on the clients behalf. That most definitely includes a mass of contractual (legal) matters that basically govern all projects.

At the end of the day, ....it always comes down to Money!!!!

 

[batty]

Batty,I haven't been a sparks since i was 23. And yes, i'm afraid these days a lot of my time is taken up by all the other stuff that's involved in running projects on the clients behalf. That most definitely includes a mass of contractual (legal) matters that basically govern all projects.

At the end of the day, ....it always comes down to Money!!!!

So 23 years ago when you were sparking people probably had pendants or a centre lights nowadays and on some jobs that I have done they have downligts in every room now if you don't put your neutral in your switches or use the spider method you have four cables at the first downlight in most rooms this is really not a good way to wire this system. Loop in switches is a better way as far as i'm concearned.

 

[Larnacaman]

Steptoe,

Read what i've posted earlier here, where i quite clearly stated there are some situations where it IS necessary to have a neutral at the switch box. DP switches is obviously such a situation!!!

Sorry Steptoe, but i just can't believe that in general terms, light switch fed/looped systems, are allowed let alone encouraged on a contractual project. In fact they will clearly state, joints in any system wiring is strictly forbidden unless approved by the clients representative....

---------- AUTO MERGE Post added at 00:03 ---------- Previous post was at 00:00 ----------

No Batty, ....just a more convienient for you to wire them...

Connection points to light fittings are not deemed as joints they are connection points.

Oh, ....and i wish i were still 46, ...honest i really do!! lol!!!

 

[Evans Electric]

So... 57 posts on whether to have the neutral at the switch or the light with a lot of working at height red herrings thrown in and some legal stuff was it ...... and the outcome is unchanged . To drag ourselves back to the OP , it makes not a jot of difference which way you do it ( and you won't find a reg that says otherwise)

I think I covered this in my famous " Myths of the trade" thread . The neutral at the switch has been argued about since I started in the trade and originates from the Reg. that states " A single pole switch must not be used to switch the neutral" .

This has been mis- interprated for years as " The neutral cannot pass through a switch (box) . You can have all three phases there if you wish but not the neutral !!!

In "Myths of the Trade " I had shown a diagram of a steel conduit job which can still be seen in a major B,ham hospital, where an employee of ours ,to avoid the dreaded neutral through the switch ,tee'd off before the switch box , the hospital engineers still point at it in wonderment . If its still in the Photobucket thing I'll resurect it .