Do I Need To Burn My Clothes?

[Blue Duck]

Sidewinder;

I'm not saying that it is not a serious matter, it is indeed, I now fully understand the consequences of uncovering the stuff be it accidentally or otherwise. I was more aware of the health implications rather than the statutory ones.

I have tried to find out from non hse sources how we can help the customer deal with this and seriously no one cares other than hse and asbestos removal / testing firms.

We are looking at asbestos training but knowing my boss It will be forgotten by next week. He also asked me If I wanted to go back and take some samples and check for more asbestos which kinda says it all really  :huh:  I told him to shove it then today he asked me to fit a toilet seat for "someone known to us" I told him to shove that too.

One of my best friends had cancer of the lymphatic system and this is fairly common in people who work with airborne chemicals but he believes it was getting the tube to work.

I really do take this seriously and have tried my best to rectify the situation and learned quite a lot on the subject in the process.

Can't really see hse suing an old couple and a charity for trying to help them but who knows?

I apologise if some of my replies seemed lackadaisical.

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

Look, asbestos kills.

In comparison with compliance with CAWR, that is  like comparing chalk & cheese.

CAWR is STATUE LAW, HSE WILL prosecute.

Look it up.

A lot of other things kill too.

Please show me the part / item (call it what you will) that says the HSE will prosecute (I genuinely do not know, and by your comments you imply you do know, so I am asking you)

 

[Sidewinder]

Will this do you?

http://press.hse.gov.uk/2013/health-board-fined-for-asbestos-failings/

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

This is a very serious matter but that link above and the prosecution regarded people that were aware of the problem and did not address it. I was serious in my comments in my post above that you are saying bd , myself and many other people are not compedant and have broken the law by working in a property that we were all suprised had some asbestos.

Do you think this is asbestos ?



And here is the luverly electric fire that was removed

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I would be very genuinely interested to know how in a domestic environment it can be proved that person X or person Y actually disturbed an asbestos fiber that may or may not have caused some later illness to a homeowner...

Take a hypothetical example...

Mr property owner 'A' is selling his house.. as is often the case he goes around slapping some paint and new light switches and light fittings up to make it all look nice and in good condition...

Mr new home owner 'B' buys the house... and doesn't like the light fittings so he swaps them over..

but as he is DIY .. he fails to get them to work properly.. 2-way too complicated..

He calls and electrician who come to fix the fault on a short 1 or 2 hour fault repair visit..

All three have removed and replaced a light fitting into an artex ceiling..

which is also coating an asbestos panel as it was originally a garage conversion done as a DIY project 25+ years ago and they just skimmed over the old garage celing....

So now there may or may not be hazardous asbestos fibers lurking in the pile of the carpet.....

Who if any have committed an actual offence...... 

and..

How do you prove.. or disprove it ?????

and...

How far distant is this in reality from the initial scenario posted by Blue Duck...???

Regular working in a commercial environment where DIY work does not happen is a slightly different ball game to DIY or minor electrical work done by a tradesman on a one off basis...

Even if the actual risks to health may not be that much different???

As has been mentioned earlier by others...

I know of local council websites giving guidance for the homeowner to personally dispose of  small qualities of DIY asbestos waste.....

BUT.. if you employ someone to remove it....   Totally different rules apply.....

So how can the risk/hazard change just because one is DIY and one is trade???

Thoughts anyone..??

opcorn

 

[NozSpark]

Last year while I was at a customers house we heard a banging, much like someone firing a shotgun repeatedly, so we went out into the back garden to investigate and saw what looked like snow falling (it was July BTW)

We figured out that someone a few doors down had a bonfire going and that they must have thrown an asbestos backed door on it... I went in pretty pronto and TBH I was furious, I wanted to call someone to report it, but who do you call at 5pm on a Friday?

 

[Steve3948]

Mi5, CIA, Tactical Firearms Unit or Council who will follow it up in about 3 months time  :yellow card

 

[Technician]

 but who do you call at 5pm on a Friday?

Environmental Health.

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

Will this do you?

http://press.hse.gov.uk/2013/health-board-fined-for-asbestos-failings/

Not wishing to be pedantic, but no, that will not "do"

I asked you to

Please show me the part / item (call it what you will) that says the HSE will prosecute

All you have done is to provide a link of a case of prosecution. You seem to be implying that anyone who works on asbestos (or their boss) will be prosecuted, which is simply not true.

As has been said, if tradesperson A works does work for Mr and Mrs Old couple, and tradesperson A drills / breaks asbestos, you can not take the employer to court when you said

Your employer is the one who has committed the criminal offence.

To be honest about it, I believe you are trying to be helpful in regards asbestos, but all you are doing is scaremongering. (All be it unintentional)

I think it best if we all move on from this topic.

Peace be with you.

 

[Sidewinder]

What I am saying is that there is statute law in the form of CAWR made under Act of Parliament which controls work with Asbestos.

This stuff is seriously dangerous.

If you feel I an scaremongering then so be it, that's fine by me.

The law says requires in general that you must not spread fibres around.

In working with the stuff you can end up doing this.

It is the legal duty of you employer to ensure that this does not happen.

Go study CAWR.

 

[Manator]

Not wishing to be pedantic, but no, that will not "do"

I asked you to

All you have done is to provide a link of a case of prosecution. You seem to be implying that anyone who works on asbestos (or their boss) will be prosecuted, which is simply not true.

As has been said, if tradesperson A works does work for Mr and Mrs Old couple, and tradesperson A drills / breaks asbestos, you can not take the employer to court when you said

To be honest about it, I believe you are trying to be helpful in regards asbestos, but all you are doing is scaremongering. (All be it unintentional)

I think it best if we all move on from this topic.

Peace be with you.

Ignorance of the law is not acceptable as a form of defence.

Mitigation could be argued as a reasonable defence against a prosecution taken against a member of the public, but never for a tradesman. The reason? Any tradesman who carries out his or her work is required under various regulations to comply with all laws. This is one of my fundamental pet hates when it is obvious that people who frequent this and other forums are oblivious to the regulations outside of BS7671.

If you think that the HSE will overlook any infringement think again,and if you think this is unintentional scaremongering you are indeed in danger of prosecution yourself for thinking this topic is trivial.

There are many leaflets distributed by the HSE that covers all types of asbestos, and how to deal with finding it, accidental or otherwise.

On a side note it is against the law to begin work without a site asbestos survey!!

I suppose that's scaremongering on a massive scale as its scares the hell out of the British justice system.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Whats anyone's opinion on the pic i posted above, is this asbestos ?

 

[revjames]

This got me thinking. We recently got an allotment. Everyone seems to have makeshift fences etc made out of old asbestos. Loads of ot kicking about in the open air. Broken pieces strewn all over the place and its a council run place too. What should be done?

 

[NozSpark]

Whats anyone's opinion on the pic i posted above, is this asbestos ?

Dunno,,,, it certainly looks like asbestos from the photo as it looks fibrous,, but TBH its difficult to tell

 

[ProDave]

Will this do you?

http://press.hse.gov.uk/2013/health-board-fined-for-asbestos-failings/

That is a case of someone having three surveys done, each showing asbestos to be present, and then doing nothing about it.

That is TOTALLY different to somebody who goes do do some work on an ordinary looking dwelling, unscrews a light fitting, and discovers asbestos, that nobody including the owner knew was there.

The electrician in the second case has NOT committed anything like the same offence as the first one, and to try an imply he is just as guilty and should receive the same punishment is just wrong.

There are also a LOT of materials around that look like asbestos that are not.  I had an extension built on my previous house in 1998, long after asbestos was banned. But the stuff they used on the sofits (some form of cement board) looked exactly like asbestos.

 

[Sidewinder]

Look every one seems to bleat on about complying with BS7671, which TBH is at the bottom of the compliance tree when it comes to working on electrical installations in buildings.

The first things you need to comply with are the statute laws, like it or not, agree with them or not.

CAWRs one of these.

To comply you must assume that all materials contain asbestos until proven otherwise.

Now this can be by type, such that it is known that copper wire conductors cannot contain asbestos.

It can be by testing, etc.

However, you have a statute law duty to ensure that you do not disturb asbestos containing materials such as to spread fibres i. The environment in the course of your business.

Look on it as a tax if you want, but that is the way it is.

It applies to businesses, not to diy or householders.

Like it or lump it, another reason i don't do domestic.

 

[Evans Electric]

Whats anyone's opinion on the pic i posted above, is this asbestos ?

All anyone can say is ...It looks like asbestos so it has to treated as such until it is declared "Safe" by an expert .   

I believe the official advice would be to :-

a)  Report it

b)  Do not cut or drill it or cause any dust .

c)  Do not remove it .

d)  You do not have the expertise or protective clothing etc to mess with it .

I can never find any ruling on whether to pull fuses with asbestos arc pads other than what I posted earlier .  Some old 3036 boards also have asbestos phase barriers in them . 

The only advice is to have the board removed by experts  ( Not by electricians ....who only make the board "dead" and then run off .)   

 

[Sidewinder]

Whats anyone's opinion on the pic i posted above, is this asbestos ?

Yes it is an ACM, unless you have had a test done to prove that it is not.

 

[Blue Duck]

This got me thinking. We recently got an allotment. Everyone seems to have makeshift fences etc made out of old asbestos. Loads of ot kicking about in the open air. Broken pieces strewn all over the place and its a council run place too. What should be done?

Something like this?

Seriously though I'm glad this is still going even if it were a little tense at times.

I was looking for a member on here and trawled through about 10 pages of G's so there must be hundreds of lurkers here a day so thats potentially hundreds more people aware of the potential hazards

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

As no one has commented much further on my thoughts in post #46...

I will add further comment myself.....   {sometimes wonder if I am on everyones "ignore list" :slap  }

1/  For anyone wanting further reading......  http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2675/contents/made

2/  and if you are self employeed...   this page..  http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2675/regulation/3/made  says...

(2) These Regulations shall apply to a self-employed person as they apply to an employer and an employee and as if that self-employed person were both an employer and an employee.

3/  Now getting back to the original question and the "accidental exposure or release" of some fibres..

There is requirement to identify and risk assess before commencing work...

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2675/regulation/5/made

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2675/regulation/6/made

But there is a level of defence, from...

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2675/regulation/15/made

we have..

Duty to prevent or reduce the spread of asbestos

15. Every employer shall prevent or, where this is not reasonably practicable, reduce to the lowest level reasonably practicable, the spread of asbestos from any place where work under his control is carried out.

Which to me implies there is provision and allowance for small unexpected exposure...

Because there is still the grounds of  whats "REASONABLE PRACTICABLE"..

I would suggest that it is not reasonable practicable for a sole trader to undertake an asbestos test on every ceiling that he is asked to come and replace a light fitting on.....

and we all have to prove reasonable precautions and due diligence....

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2675/regulation/28/made

ie..

Defence

28. Subject to regulation 21 of the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999(1), in any proceedings for an offence consisting of a contravention of these Regulations it shall be a defence for any person to prove that he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the commission of that offence.

where regulation 21:  says..http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2675/regulation/21/made

Through CAWR there is mention of an "Action Level" which is described as...

action level means one of the following cumulative exposures to asbestos over a continuous 12-week period when measured or calculated by a method approved by the Health and Safety Commission, namely

(a)

where the exposure is solely to chrysotile, 72 fibre-hours per millilitre of air;

(b)

where exposure is to any other form of asbestos either alone or in mixtures including mixtures of chrysotile with any other form of asbestos, 48 fibre-hours per millilitre of air; or

©

where both types of exposure occur separately during the 12-week period concerned, a proportionate number of fibre-hours per millilitre of air;

That said..... 

Sidewinder is 110% right in his point that too much emphasis is placed on the myth that all an electrician needs to do is comply with BS7671....

Employers, Employees, Self employed all have a pile of other legislation they MUST be aware of to trade safely and competently....

Draw your own conclusions and act accordingly gents/ladies it is you who will be liable!!

Guinness