Fitting a new consumer unit

[Mell]

Hi everyone,

I've been asked to fit a new db in a house that still using the old fuse wire db, now I've only seen a photo of old db and there is only 5 circuits now I'm assuming that the sockets upstairs and down are only on one circuit as is the lights can I just change the board and test or would the house require a rewire as I know a new db is a few hundred and a rewire a few thousand I know which the customer would want and I know the regs say different. 

 

[Murdoch]

How old is the installation?

 

[Mell]

The customer said the house is about 40 yrs old.

 

[Mell]

So I'm assuming the electrics are that old too, I said I'll do a condition report first with obviously a schedules of results too but advised the board to be changed firstly.

 

[Murdoch]

@ 40 years old be aware that white 2.5 was probably 2.5 mm x 2 and 1 x 1mm

an EICR may be required BUT I would do a site visit first.

maybe check with your CPS?

 

[Sidney]

Have you done a site visit yet?

Done any basic testing to check Ze?

Presence and condition of any bonding and earthing arrangements?

Why would a 40 year old installation require a rewire?

 

[Mell]

The customer was told by his friend that he'll need a rewire if he has a new board I don't know his reasons he's an electrician but does not test and inspect hence why I've been asked, yes I am doing a visit next week and will test Zs and earth bonding and take if from there but I also thought that upstairs circuits had to be separate from downstairs circuits.

 

[Murdoch]

but I also thought that upstairs circuits had to be separate from downstairs circuits.

that’s not a regulation .....

 

[Andy™]

 I also thought that upstairs circuits had to be separate from downstairs circuits.

slightly worrying that your going to do an EICR without sound knowledge of BS7671...

 

[Murdoch]

Op. Please do not join the NAPIT code breakers clan who go round condemning older installs using their codes

 

[phil d]

Here is one another one of those times when the older and more experienced of us would look at the phrase 'good for continued service'. Obviously an installation that was wired to lets say the 15th edition isn't going to comply with the 18th edition, but that in my opinion isn't an excuse to justify a full rewire, so long as the IR values are ok, which is one of the main things, and earth loop values are within the specs then it may be possible to replace the board and make a few other minor improvements rather than rip the lot out and start again.

I often wonder where all this is going to end, there is an estate near me and it was built in several phases, phase 1 was completed a couple of months before the 18th edition came out, so it was wired obviously to the 17th, the rest obviously were wired to the 18th edition. What I am waiting for is when someone has their installation inspected in 5 years and someone with very little experience comes along and advises the homeowner that their property needs a rewire as it doesn't comply with the latest regs, I can see some really upset people when they are told that their home which cost nearly £200K and is under 6 years old is in need of a rewire, and believe me with some of the EICR's I have seen lately, I can see that happening.

 

[boltonsparky]

Here is one another one of those times when the older and more experienced of us would look at the phrase 'good for continued service'. Obviously an installation that was wired to lets say the 15th edition isn't going to comply with the 18th edition, but that in my opinion isn't an excuse to justify a full rewire, so long as the IR values are ok, which is one of the main things, and earth loop values are within the specs then it may be possible to replace the board and make a few other minor improvements rather than rip the lot out and start again.

I often wonder where all this is going to end, there is an estate near me and it was built in several phases, phase 1 was completed a couple of months before the 18th edition came out, so it was wired obviously to the 17th, the rest obviously were wired to the 18th edition. What I am waiting for is when someone has their installation inspected in 5 years and someone with very little experience comes along and advises the homeowner that their property needs a rewire as it doesn't comply with the latest regs, I can see some really upset people when they are told that their home which cost nearly £200K and is under 6 years old is in need of a rewire, and believe me with some of the EICR's I have seen lately, I can see that happening.

Totally agree.

They pump out new regs and amendments at an alarming rate without looking at the real underlying issues which are, lack of knowledge/experience, poor workmanship, unfit for use/knock off equipment flooding the markets and unproper regulation of the industry.  

People who've had new installs and later being told they need to replace their perfectly healthy plastic CU with a metal one when the real issue with CU's going up in smoke is poor terminations and lack of regular inspection/maintenance.

Them trying to push AFDDs onto everyone when again, good workmanship in the first place and regular inspection and testing/maintenance should eliminate pretty much all of the faults an AFDD may or may not pick up and protect against.  

Poor regulation of and EICR prices being driven down to unprofitable by estate agents and therefore done from the van or an installation given a quick glance over with a load of unnecessary C2s/C1s to generate enough income from the remedials to cover the cost of the loss leading EICR.

 

[phil d]

Totally agree.

They pump out new regs and amendments at an alarming rate without looking at the real underlying issues which are, lack of knowledge/experience, poor workmanship, unfit for use/knock off equipment flooding the markets and unproper regulation of the industry.  

People who've had new installs and later being told they need to replace their perfectly healthy plastic CU with a metal one when the real issue with CU's going up in smoke is poor terminations and lack of regular inspection/maintenance.

Them trying to push AFDDs onto everyone when again, good workmanship in the first place and regular inspection and testing/maintenance should eliminate pretty much all of the faults an AFDD may or may not pick up and protect against.  

Poor regulation of and EICR prices being driven down to unprofitable by estate agents and therefore done from the van or an installation given a quick glance over with a load of unnecessary C2s/C1s to generate enough income from the remedials to cover the cost of the loss leading EICR.

Agree entirely, I did quite a bit of research into consumer unit fires, before they changed the way they collated the data and came to an alarming conclusion, given that the majority of CU fires seemed to be occuring in the London area, where there was also a lot of short course people, or even totally unskilled people working on CU's, then it had to be down to one of two things, either incorrect installation practices, which is what I suspect, or some kind of issue whereby new CU's didn't 'travel' well, this was refuted in discussions with several manufacturers, lol.

One of the worst ones I saw was a Youtube video, a youngish bloke professing to be an electrician, cautioned against the hazards created by loose connections and then proceeded to tighten all the connections with an 18v DeWalt impact driver!

A colleague and I have recently looked into an EICR on a church and what a joke it was, several items were coded as C1or C2, that in our opinions were not, but there were obvious things such as a damaged service head and undersized meter tails and poor earthing,  that were not mentioned, in fact on the test sheet, the part mentioning distributors equipment was listed as ok, he even had 'NA' in some of the boxes for things such as IR tests.in all there were 5 sheets of test results covering 25 circuits and the 2 'electricians' were only on site for around 2 1/2 hours!

 

[Evans Electric]

Hi everyone,

I've been asked to fit a new db in a house that still using the old fuse wire db, now I've only seen a photo of old db and there is only 5 circuits now I'm assuming that the sockets upstairs and down are only on one circuit as is the lights can I just change the board and test or would the house require a rewire as I know a new db is a few hundred and a rewire a few thousand I know which the customer would want and I know the regs say different. 

Run some basic tests and if OK  ,    check Ze  etc ,   1980s so bonding should be there ,   replace the CU  as asked .        You will be improving the install  with MCBs  & RCDs  for a start .     40 yr old wiring   ( 1980s) would normally be in good condition . I'd think . 

 

[binky]

Hi everyone,

I've been asked to fit a new db in a house that still using the old fuse wire db, now I've only seen a photo of old db and there is only 5 circuits 

take a board with a few spare ways, you may well find 3/4 cables in some ccts where an odd socket has been added etc etc.

Test the place and see what condition the cabling is in, if it passes there absolutely no need to re-wire anything. The official line is that if a system passes test it's good for 10 years in domestic use. Bonding will almost certainly need upgrading. 

 

[Murdoch]

Problem these days is that many customers see the cheap offers for dual boards from Screwfix and alike .

I only fit RCBO boards

Then there are SPD's .. .......... and soon AFDD's

So customers think we are just ripping them off

I did ask my main wholesaler today and only 2 sparks buy boards with SPD's - most buy RCBO boards. They've never sold a AFDD

 

[Murdoch]

Poor regulation of and EICR prices being driven down to unprofitable by estate agents and therefore done from the van or an installation given a quick glance over with a load of unnecessary C2s/C1s to generate enough income from the remedials to cover the cost of the loss leading EICR.

I've recently met a landlord who's letting agent organised a EICR and remedial action without involving the landlord ....................except for sending them a bill

 

[Murdoch]

Agree entirely, I did quite a bit of research into consumer unit fires, before they changed the way they collated the data and came to an alarming conclusion, given that the majority of CU fires seemed to be occuring in the London area, where there was also a lot of short course people, or even totally unskilled people working on CU's, then it had to be down to one of two things, either incorrect installation practices, which is what I suspect, or some kind of issue whereby new CU's didn't 'travel' well, this was refuted in discussions with several manufacturers, lol.

Out of interest, where did you get this information from?

I suspect loose connections AND cheap CU's is more the issue

 

[binky]

from todays inspection - not sure if this was DiY or dodgy builder. Look at the main switch in particular.

 

[Murdoch]

from todays inspection - not sure if this was DiY or dodgy builder. Look at the main switch in particular.

View attachment 11049

Not very pretty

Where I've been working today has a recently "moved" CU - they didn't just move the CU, they also shuffled the circuits, combined upstairs and downstairs onto 1 MCB but didn't bother re-labeling them either ........... very tedious.