Garden office

[ianmacd]

I'm not trusting everything I'm told on the telephone. I'm using my common sense, intelligence and knowledge without listening to old wives tales.If there are no exposed or extraneous conductive parts in an outbuilding, then there is nothing wrong with running 6mm 3-core SWA to it, using one core as the circuit protective conductor.

Nothing in the regs, the EAWR or anywhere else says that you can't! - regardless of the earthing system.

What do you think is going to happen with a loss of supply neutral - nothing - the current will flow down you water and gas pipes.

And if you haven't got these, then it isn't going antwhere, is it?

Are you really trying to tell me that if you have an attached garage, and you run an SWA cable for power and lighting to it, straight through the wall of your house, that it is any different if that garage is moved three metres away from the house and becomes detached.

As I said earlier, it's extraneous conductive parts that make the difference - and that still wouldn't mean you couldn't, it just means you have to consider the size of the bonding CSA, depending on the distance from the MET to the outbuilding - could end up something like 16mm, then you can't use your 6mm 3-core.

Those are the facts.

You missed the blinding obvious fact that its not YOUR EARTH. If the DNO say NO that means NO. If the DNO do not say no then there are still reasons not to do it.

Noticed too you glossed over the part about not allowing TN-C-S where the earth will be exported (petrol stations, caravan parks etc..).

 

[ADS]

If the DNO do not say no then there are still reasons not to do it.

Which are???? People keep plucking these rules out of the air with no explanation!!

Noticed too you glossed over the part about not allowing TN-C-S where the earth will be exported (petrol stations, caravan parks etc..).

I haven't glossed over anything, I thought we were talking about a domestic outbuildingheadbang - Petrol stations and caravan parks are full of exposed and extraneous conductive parts - different kettle of fish.

I've spoken to Eon, by the way - they said they don't give technical advice like that, they are only concerned with the supply side, the consumer side should comply with the regs.

So, a Reg number and an explanation of the dangers, please

 

[ianmacd]

Which are???? People keep plucking these rules out of the air with no explanation!!I haven't glossed over anything, I thought we were talking about a domestic outbuildingheadbang - Petrol stations and caravan parks are full of exposed and extraneous conductive parts - different kettle of fish.

I've spoken to Eon, by the way - they said they don't give technical advice like that, they are only concerned with the supply side, the consumer side should comply with the regs.

So, a Reg number and an explanation of the dangers, please

Domestic garage with concrete floor. Class I accessory plugged in. How is that not going to end in tears?

 

[PBC_1966]

Here we go again!

You'll be fitting earth rods to an outdoor socket next! - coz we can't export the earth to the outside wall.

Better make that an individual earth rod for every indoor socket as well. After all, what happens when somebody plugs an extension lead into one and trails it outside to trim the hedge or clean the car?

 

[ianmacd]

OK lets look at this another way.

Neutral is considered a live connection correct? So you are advocating exporting that live connection out of the supply building into an environment where it may meet something at Earth potential?

 

[Lurch]

Stop ruining threads with this drivel. I don;t think I can take it any more, there's obviously some issues need addressing but don;t turn every thread into a 20 page useless thread.

Think the mods need to get this thing sorted and start moving posts\trimming threads.

 

[PBC_1966]

Neutral is considered a live connection correct?

It never used to be.

So you are advocating exporting that live connection out of the supply building into an environment where it may meet something at Earth potential?

How is it any different from the extension-lead scenario? Or from something like a bonded duct or vent pipe which passes through an exterior wall to the outside of the house? Or an outside water spigot?

 

[ianmacd]

Indeed it is not but with the extension lead its considered not for frequent use. The others I guess should have an insulating part or be placed 'out of reach'.

TBH it doens't really matter if YOUR supply is TN-S or TN-C-S as you may well still inherit a TN-C-S fault from a neighbouring property so until the DNO actually fit rods at the head (how hard is it to require they are built into all new buildings foundations) then TN-C-S will not be as 'safe' as TT.

Also, TN-S Earthing conductors have been known to break and not detected. I believe there was a situation a few years back where one DNO removed all the TN-S Earths and required all the properties be TT'd.

 

[ADS]

Ian,

You still haven't answered :

So, a Reg number and an explanation of the dangers, please

This:-

Domestic garage with concrete floor. Class I accessory plugged in. How is that not going to end in tears?

....is a feeble attempt.

I assume you're talking about the loss of supply neutral again?

The same thing would apply to your class 1 accessory plugged in in your kitchen or, indeed, the attached garage in the scenario.

How does 3 metres of air between house and garage make it more dangerous.

This comment....

OK lets look at this another way. Neutral is considered a live connection correct? So you are advocating exporting that live connection out of the supply building into an environment where it may meet something at Earth potential?

....is the craziest yet!

Your happy to export the Line conductor, which is at 230v under normal conditions, but God forbid we take an earth out to the outbuilding in case we lose the neutral - which, I might add, is about as likely as finding Rocking Horse poo in your garage.

And Lurch,

Stop ruining threads with this drivel. I don;t think I can take it any more, there's obviously some issues need addressing but don;t turn every thread into a 20 page useless thread. Think the mods need to get this thing sorted and start moving posts\trimming threads.

This is like watching a TV program that really disgusts you from start to finish, the complaining to the TV Watchdog about how offended you are:^O

You have an on/off switch - read another post

It is, after all, a forum, with freedom to talk about what we wish.

I am fed up of some people on this forum stating false claims to the point that others are even scared to mention something for fear of being shot down - e.g. taking an earth to an outbuilding.

For once and for all, I would just like someone to come up with a valid reason/regulation as to why you can't

 

[ianmacd]

You have many valid reasons not to. They have been given time and time again.

Mods. maybe this thread can be close dif the OP is happy he has his answers to stop people posting potentially dangeros advise that DIY'ers could find with a search.

 

[ADS]

Oh............. my..................god!!! :Applaud

What a way to win the debate - I've got no valid points so close the thread please, mods. ha ha ha

 

[Theorysparky]

I had spam fritters last night !!!!!

 

[batty]

Simple really if you are in EDF distribution area they do not allow you to export pme earth to outbuildings and if its a new build they will not connect you to there supply. Now if you do connect pme earth to your outbuilding and something goes wrong you as installer that signed part p certificate will be liable so thats it really. Personally I always TT outbuildings as they are seperate buildings no matter what the earthing arrrangment is that way if somebody wants to change an install from TT to TNC-S the outbuiding I have wired will not prevent this. This is my opinion many will disagree but thats what I stick too.

 

[Lurch]

This is like watching a TV program that really disgusts you from start to finish, the complaining to the TV Watchdog about how offended you are:^OYou have an on/off switch - read another post

It is, after all, a forum, with freedom to talk about what we wish.

I am fed up of some people on this forum stating false claims to the point that others are even scared to mention something for fear of being shot down - e.g. taking an earth to an outbuilding.

For once and for all, I would just like someone to come up with a valid reason/regulation as to why you can't

Argue it all you want, I can happily ignore a thread where this si the topic, but it wasn't neccesarily the topic in question here.

It's like having a TV, with the same ting on every channel so there's no way of switching off, other than to turn the TV off.

 

[ADS]

This is where the confusion arises,

We are not talking about exporting PME (the protective multiple earthing applied to the PEN) - we know that's not allowed!

We are not talking about exporting the PEN - that, also, is not allowed.

These two items end at the cutout - supply side.

We are talking about running a Protective Conductor from the consumers MET to a part of the consumer installation - something that's done every day!

 

[ADS]

Argue it all you want, I can happily ignore a thread where this si the topic, but it wasn't neccesarily the topic in question here. It's like having a TV, with the same ting on every channel so there's no way of switching off, other than to turn the TV off.

I must admit Im getting bored of it now:^O - there's no getting through to some people!

 

[PBC_1966]

Simple really if you are in EDF distribution area they do not allow you to export pme earth to outbuildings and if its a new build they will not connect you to there supply.

That might be the official position, but practice can be quite different. I'm in an EDF area, and admittedly it's two or three years since I was last involved with new supply, but certainly at that time the guys actually coming out to do work around here really weren't concerned about anything like that at all.

Plus in many cases the supply is connected and EDF (plus Siemens metering or whoever the chosen supplier uses) are long gone before things like outbuildings get hooked up to the installation anyway.

 

[ian932]

We are talking about running a Protective Conductor from the consumers MET to a part of the consumer installation - something that's done every day!

No your talking about extending the main equipotential zone without the suppliers permission

 

[ian932]

Maybe we should think of it this way then you ask a mate if you can borrow their car and your covered on your car insurance say TPF&T, you do this several times and not a dent or scratch each time. Then one day he

 

[ADS]

No your talking about extending the main equipotential zone without the suppliers permission

You just don't get it, do you?

You don't need DNO permission to do anything on the cosumer side - as long as it complies with BS 7671!

I've spoken to EON, Ive spoken to Scottish Power and Ive spoken to the IET - none of them have a problem with it.

The two DNOs said it's nothing to do with them - consumer side - they're only concerned with the installation complying with the regs!

The IET said its a bonding issue - no extraneous parts, no problem.

So who should we listen to - you and Steptoe and your fantasies, or the official word on the matter.