- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 14,288
- Reaction score
- 943
Really?
Reg Number and page number of BS7671:2018 would be of much interest and assistance to others if you could quote please??
Garden power regulations
- Thread starter michaelsf90
- Start date
Help Support Talk Electrician Forum:
Really?
Reg Number and page number of BS7671:2018 would be of much interest and assistance to others if you could quote please??
Over 400 sq mm singles get very expensive,
and almost impossible to work with,
Never mind SWA,
Last job I was on had 5 X 400mm per phase ,
I just figured a 3mm cpc would be better
all cabling is designed with a cpc suitable for it's max current carrying capabilites under fault conditions.
all cabling is designed with a cpc suitable for it's max current carrying capabilites under fault conditions.
Hi Michaels
If your shed is only 7 metres away from the house then TN is fine as is TT if you prefer. You mentioned shed fed 50m via rcbo32a from house CSU in 2x 2,5mm ring then 4mm swa to shed is also fine to 4.5Kw ish ...Sounds like you have enough headroom to have a large heater if needed. As someone has mentioned check your Zs at shed CSU and circuits, rcd test and you should be right and dandy if it has been installed correctly. (if you had 4mm swa from the rcbo to shed 50m it would also be fine). Have a nice day.
Speed
Active member
The PEN is the armouring. Have you never seen a concentric cable. Yes you correct about where it splits, but you get the point. I was using the term meter as a generalisation for the meter box. You just being picky. Was that all you could find to criticise?
Fleeting
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2021
- Messages
- 1,528
- Reaction score
- 453
Armour or banding around the bedding of a cable is to provide a level of mechanical protection. The outer conductor of a concentric cable is a live conductor and offers no mechanical protection. I wasn't criticising I was correcting your obvious lack of technical knowledge.
Speed
Active member
To answer the question. 13A BS1363 socket outlets designed solely for use in offices or domestic. They not allowed for use in factories or workshops by the IEE/IET Regulations. Simply due to restrictions of the size of floor area this type of circuit allowed to serve. That is floor Area measured between one solid wall and another. Not between low partitions, fences, or lines marked on the floor.
The regulation that applies is 433.1.204 and since it somewhat technical for the uninitiated. Appendix 15 of the 18th edition explains how to comply. It states that floor area for a ring-main with BS1363 socket outlets can serve is a maximum of 100 square metres (i.e. 10m x 10m). Also, again if you read the ON-SITE GUIDE for the 18th, Appendix H, page 188. It states both in the first paragraph and the Table H2.1 for final circuits using BS1363 socket-outlets. That the permissible floor area this type of circuit can fed is "100 square metres". That is not a '100 metre square', which measures 100m x 100m.
Socket outlets for use in factories and workshops must be to BS4343 on a radial circuit. See ON-SITE GUILD, Appendix H, H3.1, page 190. As there no restrictions for the number of sockets you allowed or the floor area they can serve. So both the BS4343 sockets and floor area they can feed is unlimited. As long as you calculate the correct wire size to comply with volt-drop and earth-loop readings for the length of run to final outlet. Plus, any grouping factor depending where wires run (i.e. On tray or Ladder, in trunking or conduit, etc).
So all you so-called electricians who think it ok to install 13A socket-outlets in factories or workshops better think again. As you are breaking the law.
I hope I made it clear enough for anyone who doubts what I’m stating. If you still don't understand I suggest you try a different trade, because electricals is not for you.
Speed
Active member
It is 100 square metres (10m x 10m), NOT 100 metre square (100m x 100m). Get the terminology correct.
As for you question, the regulation that applies is 433.1.204 and since it somewhat technical for the uninitiated. Appendix 15 of the 18th edition explains how to comply. It states that floor area for a ring-main with BS1363 socket outlets can serve is a maximum of 100 square metres (i.e. 10m x 10m). Also, again if you read the ON-SITE GUIDE for the 18th, Appendix H, page 188. It states it both in the first paragraph and the Table H2.1 for final circuits using BS1363 socket-outlets. That the permissible floor area this type of circuit can fed is "100 square metres". That is not a '100 metre square', which measures 100m x 100m = 10000 square metres.
Socket outlets for use in factories and workshops must be to BS4343 on a radial circuit. See ON-SITE GUILD, Appendix H, H3.1, page 190. As there no restrictions for the number of sockets you allowed or the floor area they can serve. So both the BS4343 sockets and floor area they can feed is unlimited. As long as you calculate the correct wire size to comply with volt-drop and earth-loop readings for the length of run to final outlet. Plus, any grouping factor depending where wires run (i.e. On tray or Ladder, in trunking or conduit, etc).
Both circuits for socket to BS1363 (13A) and to BS4343 (16A) are what is known as standard circuits. Something an Apprentice should know. Let alone a supposed electrician.
Last edited:
Speed
Active member
Are you saying that the outer solid strands around a concentric cable does not offer mechanical protection? If so, what is the point of the outer strands? When they could just used a 2c unarmoured cable. The whole point of concentric cable is to provide both mechanical and earth protection in one. Have you ever work installing concentric cable to supply houses?
Fleeting
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2021
- Messages
- 1,528
- Reaction score
- 453
No it doesn't offer mechanical protection, how can a live conductor offer mechanical protection. Contact any cable manufacturer and they will confirm this.
What is earth protection.
Fleeting
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2021
- Messages
- 1,528
- Reaction score
- 453
That Regulation makes no reference to a maximum floor are nor does it reference Appendix 15 which I have also pointed out as informative and not a Regulation.
I have no need of an On Site Guide and again the parts you quote can you enforce them with actual Regulations from BS7671.
Appendix 15 says:- taking account of the floor area served. (historically a limit of 100m2 has been adopted)
Kind of contradicts itself and another fine example of not very good writing in the regs. To me that is saying 100m2 is not actually the limit, more a guideline. As for the On site guide, that is a guide only. IMHO they wrecked it when they started quoting max Zs values at 80% values and telling everyone a domestic shower had to be on 10mm cable, a classic case of dumbing down the technical know how electricians should have.
you have the neutral and earth wrapped around the line, neutral we are suppossed to consider a 'live' conductor so can't really regard that as armour. Shame really as I love the smaller physical size of the cable, and, ahem, my garge supply is split con. Supplies to houses are DNO territory, they have their own rules
just been having a read through 553, nothing in there to suggest you can't install BS1363 sockets in a workshop or factory. If you are correct in this matter, every factory or workshop I have worked in is wrong. Again the On site guide is guidance not regs.
Speed
Active member
Look in the Appendix as I said. And yes, every factory you been in with socket outlets BS1363 are wrong. To comply with the H&S act, you must comply with the electrical Regs. Only a 'Chartered Electrical Engineer' can overrule the Regs. In my experience, most of the 13A socket outlets are installed by maintenance people or a man in a van who know no better. You go the a blue chip company like Pedigree Petfoods or Rolls Royce. All you will find is outlets to BS4343.
As with the word "competent" in the original wording of the Electricity at Work Regs. Where people mistook it to mean 'in their opinion'. When it fact it had a different technical legal definition (i.e. suitably electrically qualified). I think you and many others are misunderstanding the term "guidance", In this case it means how to comply. Not that you can ignore it.
Last edited:
The on site guide is a dumbed down version of the regs, and BS7671 is only guidnace itself, The OSG is written for those that can't understand the actual regs book. I worked in blue chip companies for over 20 years before retraining as an electrician 17 years ago. There's lots of production equipment in factories that use standard 3 pin 13A plugs, including the most important piece of kit of all, the kettle! What you are suggesting is that we would have to cut the 13A plug off a piece of equipment, and rewire it to a 16A commando socket, thereby removing its fuse protection in contravention of the manufacturers design and contravening its CE certification.
Nowhere in BS7671 does it say you can't use standard 13A sockets in a workshop. Likewise it doesn't say you can't use industrial sockets in a house. If that was he case, I'm sure they would have made that very clear in the regs book.
Last edited:
Just to add to the fun. I work for what is probably the biggest enterprise in the country, the NHS.
EVERY socket outlet in the entire hospital is an ordinary BS1363 one. Does this mean that the entire hospital does not comply with the regs?? Please point out in law the difference between my hospital and a "factory"
john...
EVERY socket outlet in the entire hospital is an ordinary BS1363 one. Does this mean that the entire hospital does not comply with the regs?? Please point out in law the difference between my hospital and a "factory"
john...
is he still going on about random crap and how he's a an electrical engineer / god? just hover over his name, click ignore and and then you dont have to look at any more of him living in a fantasy world
Similar threads
