Garden power regulations

[binky]

is he still going on about random crap and how he's a an electrical engineer / god? just hover over his name, click ignore and and then you dont have to look at any more of him living in a fantasy world

no fun in not having an argument

 

[Andy™]

no fun in not having an argument

you be better arguing with a brick. at least the brick would give you a suitable opinion backed up be regs / legislation

 

[Sidewinder]

To answer the question. 13A BS1363 socket outlets designed solely for use in offices or domestic. They not allowed for use in factories or workshops by the IEE/IET Regulations. Simply due to restrictions of the size of floor area this type of circuit allowed to serve. That is floor Area measured between one solid wall and another. Not between low partitions, fences, or lines marked on the floor.

The regulation that applies is 433.1.204 and since it somewhat technical for the uninitiated. Appendix 15 of the 18th edition explains how to comply. It states that floor area for a ring-main with BS1363 socket outlets can serve is a maximum of 100 square metres (i.e. 10m x 10m). Also, again if you read the ON-SITE GUIDE for the 18th, Appendix H, page 188. It states both in the first paragraph and the Table H2.1 for final circuits using BS1363 socket-outlets. That the permissible floor area this type of circuit can fed is "100 square metres". That is not a '100 metre square', which measures 100m x 100m.

Socket outlets for use in factories and workshops must be to BS4343 on a radial circuit. See ON-SITE GUILD, Appendix H, H3.1, page 190. As there no restrictions for the number of sockets you allowed or the floor area they can serve. So both the BS4343 sockets and floor area they can feed is unlimited. As long as you calculate the correct wire size to comply with volt-drop and earth-loop readings for the length of run to final outlet. Plus, any grouping factor depending where wires run (i.e. On tray or Ladder, in trunking or conduit, etc).

So all you so-called electricians who think it ok to install 13A socket-outlets in factories or workshops better think again. As you are breaking the law.

I hope I made it clear enough for anyone who doubts what I’m stating. If you still don't understand I suggest you try a different trade, because electricals is not for you.

Do you know what the origin of the 100 sq. m is?
I suspect not, otherwise, you would not be stating it in this nature.
Your message above illustrates a total misunderstanding of the requirements of this clause in BS 7671.
Also, there is no law broken by not complying with BS 7671, as it is not law merely a code of practice.
The introduction by HSE makes that fact clear.
The relevant law would be HASAWA, & EAWR, amongst others.

It is 100 square metres (10m x 10m), NOT 100 metre square (100m x 100m). Get the terminology correct.

As for you question, the regulation that applies is 433.1.204 and since it somewhat technical for the uninitiated. Appendix 15 of the 18th edition explains how to comply. It states that floor area for a ring-main with BS1363 socket outlets can serve is a maximum of 100 square metres (i.e. 10m x 10m). Also, again if you read the ON-SITE GUIDE for the 18th, Appendix H, page 188. It states it both in the first paragraph and the Table H2.1 for final circuits using BS1363 socket-outlets. That the permissible floor area this type of circuit can fed is "100 square metres". That is not a '100 metre square', which measures 100m x 100m = 10000 square metres.

Socket outlets for use in factories and workshops must be to BS4343 on a radial circuit. See ON-SITE GUILD, Appendix H, H3.1, page 190. As there no restrictions for the number of sockets you allowed or the floor area they can serve. So both the BS4343 sockets and floor area they can feed is unlimited. As long as you calculate the correct wire size to comply with volt-drop and earth-loop readings for the length of run to final outlet. Plus, any grouping factor depending where wires run (i.e. On tray or Ladder, in trunking or conduit, etc).

Both circuits for socket to BS1363 (13A) and to BS4343 (16A) are what is known as standard circuits. Something an Apprentice should know. Let alone a supposed electrician.

Appendix 15 is "informative" that is guidance on the guidance, it does not form part of the requirements of BS 7671.
Only "normative" appendices form part of the standard.

Look in the Appendix as I said. And yes, every factory you been in with socket outlets BS1363 are wrong. To comply with the H&S act, you must comply with the electrical Regs. Only a 'Chartered Electrical Engineer' can overrule the Regs. In my experience, most of the 13A socket outlets are installed by maintenance people or a man in a van who know no better. You go the a blue chip company like Pedigree Petfoods or Rolls Royce. All you will find is outlets to BS4343.

As with the word "competent" in the original wording of the Electricity at Work Regs. Where people mistook it to mean 'in their opinion'. When it fact it had a different technical legal definition (i.e. suitably electrically qualified). I think you and many others are misunderstanding the term "guidance", In this case it means how to comply. Not that you can ignore it.

Anyone can choose to ignore BS 7671 without issue, it is not compulsory, and, it has limited application in the world of electrical engineering as it only covers low and extra-low voltage installations in buildings, it does not cover HV, or machinery.
Deviations from BS 7671 are allowed, there is even a section on the certification to document deviations.

 

[binky]

Do you know what the origin of the 100 sq. m is?
I suspect not, otherwise, you would not be stating it in this nature.

what is the origin of that?

 

[Sidewinder]

The origin comes from the amount of power needed to electrically heat 100 sq metres just after WWII.

 

[binky]

The origin comes from the amount of power needed to electrically heat 100 sq metres just after WWII.

learn something everyday! So that would have been based on plugging in electric heaters and possibly overloading the cct, which could be easily done as most houses had a single ring main for the entire house back then, along with a single light cct and a cct for the cooker.

 

[Oldspark1900]

Hello all. I'm wondering whether the power in my garden complies or not. I have a consumer unit in the shed. Fed via a 2.5 ring main from the consumer unit in twin and earth to a Wiska box outside. From there it's a 4mm swa to the shed. On a 32a rcbo. The shed has a 40a mains rcd with 3 circuits. One socket in the shed. One light. And then a 2.5 swa to the pond at the back feeding a pump and filter

First of all should the supply to the shed be 6mm instead of 4mm? Secondly do I need an earth rod outside. No extraneous conductive parts. No metal. Wooden shed and wooden decking round the pond. Also the cable run from the consumer unit in the house to the shed is 50 metres. Its obviously downrated half way at the shed consumer unit to 20A. The pond pump and filter is pulling about 50W. So the load is tiny

Is uour house suppy a TNC-S system if it is you need to isolate the Earth Supply to the shed and make the Shed a TT supply Earth rod etc.

 

[Speed]

Do you know what the origin of the 100 sq. m is?
I suspect not, otherwise, you would not be stating it in this nature.
Your message above illustrates a total misunderstanding of the requirements of this clause in BS 7671.
Also, there is no law broken by not complying with BS 7671, as it is not law merely a code of practice.
The introduction by HSE makes that fact clear.
The relevant law would be HASAWA, & EAWR, amongst others.

Appendix 15 is "informative" that is guidance on the guidance, it does not form part of the requirements of BS 7671.
Only "normative" appendices form part of the standard.

Anyone can choose to ignore BS 7671 without issue, it is not compulsory, and, it has limited application in the world of electrical engineering as it only covers low and extra-low voltage installations in buildings, it does not cover HV, or machinery.
Deviations from BS 7671 are allowed, there is even a section on the certification to document deviations.

I never said it covered HV! And yes there a section for listing any deviations. However, I've yet to see anyone list 13A socket rind main in factories on it. If you ignoring this aspect of the BS7671. Does that mean you ignoring all of it, or you just treating it like a pick and mix when it suits you? Otherwise what's the point of having BS7176? O yes, the origin of 100 sq. m is from earlier editions of the Reg. It was one of the actual Regs before it moved later to the Onsite Guide. As it assumed by then that all electricians knew of this requirement. Clearly not.

 

[Speed]

Is uour house suppy a TNC-S system if it is you need to isolate the Earth Supply to the shed and make the Shed a TT supply Earth rod etc.

Why?

 

[Fleeting]

I never said it covered HV! And yes there a section for listing any deviations. However, I've yet to see anyone list 13A socket rind main in factories on it. If you ignoring this aspect of the BS7671. Does that mean you ignoring all of it, or you just treating it like a pick and mix when it suits you? Otherwise what's the point of having BS7176? O yes, the origin of 100 sq. m is from earlier editions of the Reg. It was one of the actual Regs before it moved later to the Onsite Guide. As it assumed by then that all electricians knew of this requirement. Clearly not.

BS7176.
http://www.ecosafene.com/EN/firetesting/furniture/604.html

 

[Sidewinder]

I never said it covered HV! And yes there a section for listing any deviations. However, I've yet to see anyone list 13A socket rind main in factories on it. If you ignoring this aspect of the BS7671. Does that mean you ignoring all of it, or you just treating it like a pick and mix when it suits you? Otherwise what's the point of having BS7176? O yes, the origin of 100 sq. m is from earlier editions of the Reg. It was one of the actual Regs before it moved later to the Onsite Guide. As it assumed by then that all electricians knew of this requirement. Clearly not.

So in the 12th Ed clause 201 (c) (iii) does give details on the arrangements for ring final circuits, in the form of floor area.
However, this only limits the floor area in domestic premises, not industrial or commercial.
The 13th Ed does not limit the floor area for anything but domestic and allows BS 1363 outlets.
It does limit the number of outlets per circuit for other than domestic.
It does limit the domestic floor area.
In the 14th it only limits floor area for domestic.
The 14th does not limit BS 1363 sockets to domestic only.
Once we get to the 15th the landscape changes and we are already moving toward a format which is familiar to this day.
There are no limits on the floor area, or the numbers of sockets, domestic, commercial etc. that I could find in my quick check.
Appendix 7 offers limits in the form of maximum EFLI for circuits.
The publication has now become goal setting, rather than prescriptive as it was.

I have not gone through the early guidance notes and OSG's, nor have I gone through every version of the published documents, only those I have access to on my PC.

If you believe that BS 1363 sockets are not permitted in anything but domestic, then please provide a clause number in BS7671 dictating this.

You might want to email the IET Technical Helpline for clarification?
[email protected]

 

[Speed]

So in the 12th Ed clause 201 (c) (iii) does give details on the arrangements for ring final circuits, in the form of floor area.
However, this only limits the floor area in domestic premises, not industrial or commercial.
The 13th Ed does not limit the floor area for anything but domestic and allows BS 1363 outlets.
It does limit the number of outlets per circuit for other than domestic.
It does limit the domestic floor area.
In the 14th it only limits floor area for domestic.
The 14th does not limit BS 1363 sockets to domestic only.
Once we get to the 15th the landscape changes and we are already moving toward a format which is familiar to this day.
There are no limits on the floor area, or the numbers of sockets, domestic, commercial etc. that I could find in my quick check.
Appendix 7 offers limits in the form of maximum EFLI for circuits.
The publication has now become goal setting, rather than prescriptive as it was.

I have not gone through the early guidance notes and OSG's, nor have I gone through every version of the published documents, only those I have access to on my PC.

If you believe that BS 1363 sockets are not permitted in anything but domestic, then please provide a clause number in BS7671 dictating this.

You might want to email the IET Technical Helpline for clarification?
[email protected]

I refer you back to the Onsite Guide (18th Edition), Appendix H, page 187, H2 & page 188, Table H2.1 that clearly states requirements for final Radial & Ring circuits specifically using socket-outlets to BS1363. Again, it the floor area the socket-outlets serve that precludes them from industrial use.

There also a practical reason for not installing BS1363 sockets in factories. That is the size of cable required to comply with Volt-drop and Zs readings for length of run necessary. As previously mentioned, 2.5 sq. mm fails the test requirements, if it exceeds approx. 90 m total length of ring. So you are likely to need 6 sq. mm which will be difficult if not impossible to terminate in a BS1363 socket-outlet.

In my experience the only people who request 13A socket in factories. Are those who only know them from their home and think they the only 230Vac outlets available. Very rarely if ever, do they realise there industrial 230Vac socket outlet to BS4343 that designed for use in factories. So rather than finding excuses to justify installing 13A sockets in factories. A good Electrical Engineer or Electrician will explain they better off with the socket-outlets designed for factories BS4343. As they are much more robust and most industrial electric tools require more than 13A. Welders are always asking why their single phase welder on a 13A plug-top keeps blowing fuses. Until I point out the demand current is too high for 13A plug, but not for an industrial socket to BS4343.

 

[steptoe]

I refer you back to the Onsite Guide (18th Edition), Appendix H, page 187, H2 & page 188, Table H2.1 that clearly states requirements for final Radial & Ring circuits specifically using socket-outlets to BS1363. Again, it the floor area the socket-outlets serve that precludes them from industrial use.

There also a practical reason for not installing BS1363 sockets in factories. That is the size of cable required to comply with Volt-drop and Zs readings for length of run necessary. As previously mentioned, 2.5 sq. mm fails the test requirements, if it exceeds approx. 90 m total length of ring. So you are likely to need 6 sq. mm which will be difficult if not impossible to terminate in a BS1363 socket-outlet.

In my experience the only people who request 13A socket in factories. Are those who only know them from their home and think they the only 230Vac outlets available. Very rarely if ever, do they realise there industrial 230Vac socket outlet to BS4343 that designed for use in factories. So rather than finding excuses to justify installing 13A sockets in factories. A good Electrical Engineer or Electrician will explain they better off with the socket-outlets designed for factories BS4343. As they are much more robust and most industrial electric tools require more than 13A. Welders are always asking why their single phase welder on a 13A plug-top keeps blowing fuses. Until I point out the demand current is too high for 13A plug, but not for an industrial socket to BS4343.

How many times do you need told,?
I'll use small words
The OSG forms no part of the regs whatsoever, and is only relevant for domestic installations,
So pointless trying to use it to justify your wrong assumption that BS 1363 sockets cannot be used in a factory.
How do you suppose they plug in their computers, toaster, kettle , etc,?
I'd be very grateful if you could explain to me what lucky bag you got your certificates in,?
I just want to know so I can avoid them,
Many thanks,

 

[kerching]

Purely out of curiosity where are you getting your definition of 'floor area' from?
I cannot see it in the list of definitions in BS7671 (however it may be in the other one about flammable cushions )

 

[Sidewinder]

I refer you back to the Onsite Guide (18th Edition), Appendix H, page 187, H2 & page 188, Table H2.1 that clearly states requirements for final Radial & Ring circuits specifically using socket-outlets to BS1363. Again, it the floor area the socket-outlets serve that precludes them from industrial use.

There also a practical reason for not installing BS1363 sockets in factories. That is the size of cable required to comply with Volt-drop and Zs readings for length of run necessary. As previously mentioned, 2.5 sq. mm fails the test requirements, if it exceeds approx. 90 m total length of ring. So you are likely to need 6 sq. mm which will be difficult if not impossible to terminate in a BS1363 socket-outlet.

In my experience the only people who request 13A socket in factories. Are those who only know them from their home and think they the only 230Vac outlets available. Very rarely if ever, do they realise there industrial 230Vac socket outlet to BS4343 that designed for use in factories. So rather than finding excuses to justify installing 13A sockets in factories. A good Electrical Engineer or Electrician will explain they better off with the socket-outlets designed for factories BS4343. As they are much more robust and most industrial electric tools require more than 13A. Welders are always asking why their single phase welder on a 13A plug-top keeps blowing fuses. Until I point out the demand current is too high for 13A plug, but not for an industrial socket to BS4343.

The OSG is irrelevant and does not form part of the requirements of BS 7671, it is merely a guide to this document.

Your reference in the OSG does NOT limit the use of BS 1363 socket outlet ring final circuits to domestic and similar, to gives advice on the limits that are recommended in such places.
These limits do not exist outside domestic or similar premises.
I refer you to the Preface i the OSG

Which goes on into the introduction to state the following:


Therefore, it does not propose to cover large industrial or commercial installations, and whilst it does have smaller variations of such locations in scope, it does not anywhere limit what can be done in industrial locations.
If you read the wording, it does not preclude BS 1363 accessories in industrial, nor does it limit the floor area in them, it limits the floor area in domestic and similar, which is a carryover from the earlier editions of the IEE Wiring Regulations where domestic premises had floor area limits, and larger/industrial premises did not.

 

[kerching]

Point of clarification for Students, apprentices and those who have not kept up with revisions. I believe that BS4343 was renamed/updated some time ago to 60309-1

Just saying

 

[NozSpark]

Point of clarification for Students, apprentices and those who have not kept up with revisions. I believe that BS4343 was renamed/updated some time ago to 60309-1

Just saying

Only 30 years ago too!!!

 

[kerching]

Only 30 years ago too!!!

Yeah, but you know me, I don't like to be judgemental

 

[kerching]

I am more "informative" than "regulatory"

 

[Speed]

How many times do you need told,?
I'll use small words
The OSG forms no part of the regs whatsoever, and is only relevant for domestic installations,
So pointless trying to use it to justify your wrong assumption that BS 1363 sockets cannot be used in a factory.
How do you suppose they plug in their computers, toaster, kettle , etc,?
I'd be very grateful if you could explain to me what lucky bag you got your certificates in,?
I just want to know so I can avoid them,
Many thanks,

The OSG is part of the regulations, as it tell you how to comply. And in turn the IET Regs tell how to comply with the EAWR Regs. It a fulse presumption the IET Reg only for domestic use. Industrial power distribution systems MUST comply also. Only 'Charted Electrical Engineers' whom a member of the IET council can overrule the Regs, and then there has to be a shit load of paperwork to accompany alteration. The Regs and OSG do not state anywhere that it only for domestic installations. It applies to all final ring circuits with socket to BS1363, whether in Domestic, Office, Commercial, or in an Industrial office (a VERY small office). If you need a 13A socket outlet for a computer in a factory. There is nothing stopping you installing a single twin-socket on a 16A MCB radial just for that. However, it much better on a fused spur connection unit. What you cannot do is install a final ring circuit with multiple outlets to BS1363 in the factories for general use.

I'm afraid my wooden headed friend, the IET Regs do apply in factories. Also, why are people plugging in Toasters or Kettles in a factory work environment. Food & drink should be consumed in a proper location set aside for breaks where there hand washing facilities. On H&S hygiene grounds alone food and drink should not be consumed in a factory. Or maybe you just don't understand the difference between the terms Factory, Office, or Canteen? If so, what type of sweatshop do you work in?