Getting involved with CU change that may not have c.p.c's for circuits?

[DaveS79]

Wondering how you guys would approach this. Got a call from an older lady...really sweet old girl bless her. Want to try to give her a fair deal in terms of cost. She's requested a CU change and sent me photos of current wylex board. Have attached these. It's an old prefab she has and got my concerns that existing wiring doesn't include c.p.c's which she can't confirm and also whether or not bonding in place. Thinking of advising an eicr first as age of wiring and deterioration may mean circuits not complying and causing rcd trips with new install anyway. Aslong as all is well interms of c.p.c's I could get my r1+r2 results whilst doing this. What exactly is the crack anyway in terms of a DB change in this scenario? Obviously no c.p.c's not good but if customer not up for full rewire could change go ahead in thought that at least she might potentially have a safer installation 

 

[Evans Electric]

I presume you are talking about the lighting  Dave . ?       I wouldn't worry about it  , just look out a sticker stating no earth in the lighting  ,  check there are no  metal fittings or switches ,  check that the wiring is PVC  & include a note in your cert .   .    If its rubber  it's really passed it's  sell by date  .  

Prefabs were erected following World War 2  as a temporary answer to the housing shortage , so if erected in 1950 , wired in rubber ,   it should have been rewired by   1968 - 70 .  

For elderly people  the thought of a rewire  or any major works  is often a big deal ,   upsetting , the cost , the mess  etc. 

Into the 1960's  lighting was often wired  in PVC  singles  , red  & black  6181Y     ( No earth)

Important thing with  older folk is to comply with the "Accessible  consumer unit"   for resetting  MCBs  when a lamp blows .       

 

[DaveS79]

I presume you are talking about the lighting  Dave . ?       I wouldn't worry about it  , just look out a sticker stating no earth in the lighting  ,  check there are no  metal fittings or switches ,  check that the wiring is PVC  & include a note in your cert .   .    If its rubber  it's really passed it's  sell by date  .  

Prefabs were erected following World War 2  as a temporary answer to the housing shortage , so if erected in 1950 , wired in rubber ,   it should have been rewired by   1968 - 70 .  

For elderly people  the thought of a rewire  or any major works  is often a big deal ,   upsetting , the cost , the mess  etc. 

Into the 1960's  lighting was often wired  in PVC  singles  , red  & black  6181Y     ( No earth)

Important thing with  older folk is to comply with the "Accessible  consumer unit"   for resetting  MCBs  when a lamp blows .       

Nice 1 for heads up Evans yeah was talking lighting but will advise as to all metal switches etc be replaced if in use. Hopefully her bonding all good and no dramas with that. Do think thorough inspect and test needs carrying out first just to see what's problems might be in there. Although quoted for DB change first off.....still learning!! Will try to give her decent deal if still go ahead with DB change

 

[Hefferl]

Best practice guide 1 (CU change) at the address below has a section dedicated to this situation

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/professional-resources/best-practice-guides/

 

[Murdoch]

Some people refuse to do fuseboard changes for houses with no CPC's on the lighting circuits ........ how dumb is that!

As for R1 + R2 - you can't measure it if there is no CPC.

Our responsibility is to make homes safer, and sure changing a BS3036 CU to one with RCD's or better still RCBO's is the correct thing to do

As for the bonding - I always show the cost to install it 

AND 

more importantly you need a caveat about faults you find

I've used this for years and have never been challenged about it:

NB: If problems are detected during a fuseboard change, additional work may be required. Such issues and associated costs will be discussed with you prior to them being implemented

 

[DaveS79]

Some people refuse to do fuseboard changes for houses with no CPC's on the lighting circuits ........ how dumb is that!

As for R1 + R2 - you can't measure it if there is no CPC.

Our responsibility is to make homes safer, and sure changing a BS3036 CU to one with RCD's or better still RCBO's is the correct thing to do

As for the bonding - I always show the cost to install it 

AND 

more importantly you need a caveat about faults you find

I've used this for years and have never been challenged about it:

NB: If problems are detected during a fuseboard change, additional work may be required. Such issues and associated costs will be discussed with you prior to them being implemented

Agree entirely if makes install safer than as is gotta be a good thing. As for caveat for problems found will defo start adding that to original quotes.

Murdoch do you generally always carry out testing before DB change? How far do you go with it If you do?

 

[ProDave]

Remember, if you do end up having to for example sort out the bonding, that a lot of prefabs contain a lot of asbestos.  Be careful where you drill holes.

 

[Jono Pashley]

EICR always before a DB change where possible.

 

[Murdoch]

Murdoch do you generally always carry out testing before DB change? How far do you go with it If you do?

Depends on what I see when I visit to quote ..... experience is vital in these situations

as is the confidence to walk away if I sense the owner won’t agree to what is needed 

 

[Doc Hudson]

Even if we assume a property is in desperate need of a full rewire, the point that some electricians forget is that BS7671 makes no stipulations about how long any job may or may not take. e.g. a full rewire may be done in one go over the shortest timescale possible, or it may be implemented over a multi-staged work schedule to meet with the clients budget or other limitations; such as room by room, or circuit by circuit, spread over several months+ between stages. And any larger, long term work schedule would be spread over multiple interim payments as key stages of the work are complete. 

Where visual inspection suggests an installation is due for signification remedial works, you may choose to offer a complete "full-job-in-one-go" price, or break it down into more manageable chunks for the customer. If breaking a job down the obvious first stage in my opinion is bring fuse-box and bonding up to current standards, then address other circuits/rooms at a mutually convenient later date.

So absolutely no issues with you giving a price for fuse-box/bonding whilst advising the customer that the rest of the installation is probably beyond its reasonable working lifespan and no longer complying with current wiring regulations.  And you would be happy to provide costs for later remedial work at any suitably convenient later date.

Sometimes the individual circuit conductors can be awkward to identify in those old Wylex boxes and/or the screw heads/threads can deteriorate, and there is very little room to get your fingers in if wires have all been pushed and bunched up over the years. So once you try removing any wires they can be very difficult if you want to reconnect them. With certain older installations it can be wise to only start removing circuit connections if you have a new fuse box to re-energise the circuit later. Some things are just best not disturbed unless absolutely necessary! 

Doc H    

 

[Murdoch]

Op 

is that the only Cu? Is the fuse we can’t see the lights ?

 

[binky]

a long time ago the NICEIC sugessted that if no CPC is present on lighting, then at least persuade the customer to fit an RCD to provide some additional protection.

 

[Evans Electric]

Some good points  have been made above .  

As you say  , " Still learning "   I find that after 50 odd yrs .  

1)   Asbestos  .

2)  Expect a "borrowed neutral "  on the lighting. 

3)  Fit a board with RCBOs   not the dual board . Bit more cost but worth it .  

4)  Don't worry about  no earth lighting .  Make sure its all plastic. 

5)   Prefab  ....lucky if the bonding has been done ,  or it might be 6mm .

7)  The accepted practice with a board change is to test first .       ( Must say that some old Wylex boards certainly don't make testing easy .  )     I think there used to be a prize for the Sparks who got the most extra cables  connected into a 4 way Wylex  including a 4 way earth bar  & all bare earth wires .  The concept was not to change the board  but double & treble up in every fuseway . 

 

[Doc Hudson]

3)  Fit a board with RCBOs   not the dual board . Bit more cost but worth it .  

For that size of 6way Wylex, Screwfix have a reasonable off-the-shelf 6xRCBO equipped BG unit, which is not too extortionate. And as Evans says, any minor savings you may get from a Dual RCD board is not worth the inconvenience if anything starts tripping later. e.g. you don't want a bit of old wiring on one circuit knocking half the property circuits off if some of the cables are deteriorating a bit.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/british-general-12-module-6-way-populated-main-switch-consumer-unit/1460x

Doc H.

 

[binky]

quite like BG gear, it seems quite well made from waht I've seen of it.

 

[DaveS79]

Remember, if you do end up having to for example sort out the bonding, that a lot of prefabs contain a lot of asbestos.  Be careful where you drill holes.

Cheers Dave had thought about that but appreciate the reminder

 

[kerching]

think there used to be a prize for the Sparks who got the most extra cables  connected into a 4 way Wylex  including a 4 way earth bar  & all bare earth wires .  The concept was not to change the board  but double & treble up in every fuseway . 

Who,has ever used a "Wylex Extenso Unit"?

i have only ever seen one !

 

[DaveS79]

Can't say thank you enough to all how have commented alot of good advise been noted....probably saved me a good few blunders. Will definately in future go with RCBO board rather than split way which was thinking. Decided to tread with caution and and recommended I do an inspection first which would be £200 I said to her that depending on what I find and if we go ahead with works and change I'll deduct this from charge but she has decided not to go ahead. I think the thought that she might pay out 200 and for works before any potential DB change scared her off. Think right way to go though as could of potentially been big can of worms.

 

[DaveS79]

Op 

is that the only Cu? Is the fuse we can’t see the lights ?

I think it probably is mate

 

[Sharpend]

Am I the only one that finds it quite odd that a sweet old girl knows about no cpc’s and concerned about bonding? Can’t say I know of any old people that are this aware of electrical installations? 
either she has had other sparks in for a quote and has been informed or her children have bought the house and are using her as a guise to get a more sympathetic quote?? 
 

just saying.......... it seems odd