Grass him up or not?

[M107]

Evening boys & girls.

Well this evening I've been called out by a builder to take a look at a non-functioning light.

Having got all chatty he admitted he hasn't got any quals, hasn't registered the work with lbc & did the sparking himself as the bloke he did use became very unreliable & cant test a bean & wouldn't know how to use a meter if he had one X( .

He has refurbed the kitchen & this included lighting + sso's + heating controls + cooker.

Lights that are not working are the lounge & outside & yes you have probably guessed he has not connected the loop & the flooring upstairs has been tiled (bathroom) & laminated (landing) & the kitchen ceiling is now nicely plastered & coved with expensive moulded plaster coving :^O

Anyway theres more:

All downlights in kitchen have been gripfilled to the ceiling as he cut the holes slightly to big

The two ( all 6 are Class1) I did get down have no cpc, informed him that it needs connecting he replied;

" oh I didnt think any of them need it as the old lights weren't connected to an earth"

I asked if the jb he's hidden in the ceiling had the cpc connected;

...." no & it's connector strips, but i've used insulation tape" (no 30mA rcd) :|

Cooker circuit old T/E approx 2' long from cu (under the stairs) into terminal strip then new T/E from this joint.....no enclosure at all (no 30mA rcd).

Ringmain extended & jointed using terminal strip & again no enclosure & they are hanging loose behind a stud along with all other circuit cables .

I told him I can sort it but will also need to rectify the other problems so will quote for the lot & the ceiling will need to be cut about for access, but he has rebuffed my offer & said he will sort it himself (why f*****g well call me then ?:| )

Has anybody actually reported this kind of stuff to lbc or their scheme operator ?

I thought the NICEIC & other scheme operators were now supposed to have a dedicated email address for us to report this kinda thing?

 

[kme]

I have reported this type of work m8. I got more interest from LBC than NIC, TBH. However, if you`re on fairly good terms with the area engineer, I`d run it by him, and see what he says. Usually, it`s along the lines of

"The customer needs to make a complaint to us, and we`ll look into it......".

BUT, if you CAN get to the customer, explain your issues, and see if they`ll go along with you.....

I`d try it m8. One less pillock trying his hand, is still one less pillock. And, if they make an example of it, others could be deterred too.

In fact, my opinion could stretch to having a "duty of care" to report dangerous workmanship, which obviously doesn`t comply with 7671 OR EAWR OR HASAWA

 

[M107]

Yes I'd already decided to have a word with the home owner, it'll be easy they are just across the street, I will see if they mind me taking a few snaps.

But the standard of work is shocking so I know what I'd like to do ... just need the home owner on board

I will let you know how it goes.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Agree with KME's point..

Also.. Do you have the home owners name?

If it was me, I think I would write a letter to the customer, highlighting your concerns about..

The the poor quality of work.

Possible safety risk.

The "Apparent disregard" to BS7671, Part-P.

And strongly suggest they seek a second professional opinion from an organisation such as NICEIC/ELECSA/LABC or similar?

offer to help with finding any suitable contact addresses/e-mail etc..

Then just leave it for the customer to decide..

At the end of the day... It is there house..

and any complaint can only be investigated with their co-operation!

 

[DonkeyDong]

most scam providers won't be interested unless the builder is a member - they won't want anyone tainting their image!

Your best bet is the labc - they don't take kindly to this sort of attitude.

D.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

most scam providers won't be interested unless the builder is a member - they won't want anyone tainting their image!Your best bet is the labc - they don't take kindly to this sort of attitude.

D.

100% agree.

Almost all cases of prosecution have been brought about because of the 'illegal' use of logo's such as NICEIC ( along with the dodgy workmanship), Who have only done it as a publicity thing and offered to carry out remedial works for free.

 

[Theorysparky]

I agree with S.L. ......a letter to the homeowner stating that the electrical work being carried out does comply with the latest regs etc....

that way you have covered yourself for being there if it comes into question at a later date ie.. " an electrician had a look but didnt say anything !"

and leave it like that.....

sorry but not much sympathy for the homeowner,,,,,,how many more out there with not much clue ??????

 

[Nicky Tesla]

Yes thats right, its got to be part P this and BS that, but why?

Cos you will get prosecuted if it isn't

Well it seems not, doesn't it in real life.

I dont know anybody who has been done for doing PartP jobs without notifying the LABC except for a couple of extreme cases.

I know someone who is constantly doing weekend jobs for a property developer fitting new rings in kitchens, fitting out bathrooms after they have been moved, and fitting outside supplies to lights and garages etc. These houses go on to be sold or rented and not a single one of them has needed any part P certs, so why do we bother?

 

[ABC Technical]

Coz we are honest?

 

[kme]

Coz we are honest?

That`ll be it. :x

 

[Apache]

Yes thats right, its got to be part P this and BS that, but why?Cos you will get prosecuted if it isn't

Well it seems not, doesn't it in real life.

I dont know anybody who has been done for doing PartP jobs without notifying the LABC except for a couple of extreme cases.

I know someone who is constantly doing weekend jobs for a property developer fitting new rings in kitchens, fitting out bathrooms after they have been moved, and fitting outside supplies to lights and garages etc. These houses go on to be sold or rented and not a single one of them has needed any part P certs, so why do we bother?

Now if an unregistered person does electrics and the property is going to be rented they need a certificate from an electrician? yes?

Now if you go out and test the installation and it passes and you issue a certificate is it not you who takes responsability for the installation and then it becomes irrelavant who did the origional work?

 

[kme]

AH.

Very contentious point, you raise, young sir.

If it`s a NEW install, I wouldn`t do a PIR; as it should have correct certs. If it hasn`t, I notify LABC of the address, and walk away.

HOWEVER - with older jobs, this often arises. You don`t have to issue LABC notice for a periodic, and would simply make down the lack of paperwork on the cert.

 

[M107]

Just to keep you all informed;

I did draft a letter & saw the home owner last night, to say they were shocked is an understatement.

The hubby was all set to give the builder a second chance & see if he could put it right, but the lady of the house put him well & truely straight on that call.

I told them their best course of action would be to call LBC & NICEIC (because thats who i'm registered with) explain the situation, along the lines of builder -substandard electrical work-not informed about part P & all the rest of it. Hopefully this will get them onside before the home owners call the builder.

I also said I wasn't to happy about doing any work there (rectifying the fault) untill they had the whole issue sorted as I dont want my name associated with the crap work.

The owners were so grateful & said there was no need for me to appologise for being the bearer of bad tidings.

This is a copy of the letter:

Having being called to your property by your builder to look at rectifying a problem with the lounge/outside lighting

that has occurred since the building work began, I feel I must point out to you some observations I

have made with the standard/safety of the electrical work that has been undertaken in the kitchen.

All electrical work undertaken by any person or electrician must comply with the current 17th edition

BS7671 wiring regulations & may need to be notified to local building control as defined

by part P of the building regulations.

I have enclosed a leaflet from the NICEIC (National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation

Contracting) of who I am a member. The leaflet explains to home owners the requirements of part P

building regulations for electrical installation in the domestic environment.

You should have been given upon completion of any electrical work undertaken by the

builder/electrician, a minor works certificate which will include test results for each of the circuits that

have been worked on in the kitchen by the builder/electrician, as stated in the enclosed leaflet this is

a requirement of BS7671 wiring regulations, if it's notifiable work you will also receive from the local

building control a certificate for part P compliance.

OBSERVATIONS (no in-depth inspecting or testing have been undertaken, the following were noticed last night) :

All down lights in the kitchen are class 1 luminaries & as per BS7671 wiring regulations require a

circuit protective conductor (earth), this has not been connected. There may be further problems as

the lighting circuit is looped via junction boxes that are now behind plastered ceilings & the circuit

protective conductor (cpc) may not be connected at these junction boxes.

Junction boxes with screw terminals are now not accessible for any test/inspections at later dates,

as they are now behind plastered ceiling & below a tiled floor. In this situation a permanent

connection with crimp connectors or push connectors is required.

Lighting switches have been changed from plastic to metal faceplates. The metal faceplates require

an earth fly lead to be connected to the cpc located in the back box.

Lighting circuit has been worked on & as per the 17th edition of BS7671 wiring regulations, is now

required to have 30mA rcd/rcbo protection, because the circuit conductors are not enclosed within

earthed metal conduit or buried more than 50mm deep in the walls.

Down-lights do not seem to be fire rated (part F compliant), this is a requirement as habitable rooms

(bedroom) are above them.

Cooker circuit has been extended & the join of cables has been made using plastic terminal strip

covered in insulation tape & has been left hanging in free air. This is not good practice .

The joint also does not afford appropriate protection for its location (in the coat/shoe cupboard) & should be (a) made with crimp connections & located inside an appropriate enclosure or (B) made with a correctly rated junction box that is securely fixed to the wall.

Various cables have been joined using plastic terminal strip, these joints are now going to be

located behind a narrow stud wall & will be hanging loose.

As these cables have been moved/relocated/extended they do not meet the requirements of 17th edition wiring regulations with regard to safe routing, so would also require 30mA rcd protection.

***** (your builder) has asked me to get the lounge lighting working, to do this I will have to separate the lounge & outside front lighting away from the kitchen lighting. This will have to be done so that I can ensure the work I undertake will fully comply with BS7671 & part P building regulations & so that I can undertake the testing that is required for certification. I will also need to put this section of the lighting on to a 30mA rcd/rcbo.

Please be aware that I as a third party am not allowed by the NICEIC to; certificate / test / register for

part p compliance the electrical work that has already been undertaken in the kitchen by another

person.

 

[Theorysparky]

Nice one

covered yourself fully with a good chance of some work

dont bother with the earth fly lead to the metal fittings you dont need to

NIC say so

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Good Letter M107..

as Theory say.. your butt is very nicely covered there...

& hopefully you may get opportunity to rectify some o this stuff for reasonable reimbursement!

The only other bit I normally put on the bottom of any of these sort of letters, (which may also help others who need to write to customers), is a short closing sentence follows..

I trust the above points are self explanatory, however should you require clarification of any details, or you require any further help, please do not hesitate to contact me.

makes a nice little close to the letter... and invites the customer to come back for further prospective work!

 

[binky]

Cos you will get prosecuted if it isn'tWell it seems not, doesn't it in real life.

I dont know anybody who has been done for doing PartP jobs without

In real life people are reluctant to report others for non-conforming, hence prosecutions do not arise and idiots continue to bodge electrics. I've raised this issue before on other sites, and the reaction from lots of other people (including sparks) is quite nasty - it seems the old school moral of not grassing people up is ingrained into adult behaviour aswell.

 

[kme]

Sadly, as you say, this type of ostrich mentality is very widespread. I can & will continue to report ANYONE for carp work.

M107: Nicely put. I`d also go along with Stu`s comments r.e. closure of the letter. Let us know when the fireworks start - we`ll be waiting for the link to the video

 

[binky]

I can & will continue to report ANYONE for carp work. :

going fishing :^O :^O

ere' admin, fan we av a spooling chicker peas:^O:^O:^O

 

[M107]

Well I got home & have just had the builder on the phone

"I've had a call from Mr **** at ** ***** *** he has read a letter to me from you & he's all worried now, thats some hatchet job you've done"

No it was merely a letter designed to show my concerns about some substandard electrical work. Infact a letter that I hope was informative to all & not derogatory in anyway to anyone.

"firstly the metal switches & socket face plates are earth "

Sockets will be by design but the one light switch I removed last night hadn't been earthed.

"oh"

Like I said it wasn't a letter to get you in bother, just an informative letter stating my concerns.

"well a can't see what the problem is ... ok the earth's need putting on the lights, I can do that tomorrow"

So why not do it in the first place? I did tell you when I first took a look for you.

"well I'll connect the earths, so thats one of your list"

But you'll need to ensure that the cpc is connected at all points of the circuit not just at the lights.

"so how can i do that with junction boxes in the ceiling"

Test the circuit. Dont forget the rcd/rcbo requirements now as per 17th edition.

"how much will it be for you to correct it"

Off the top of my head I haven't a clue, I'll meet you at the address Friday evening to disscuss options :^O

"the cooker circuit was connected like that before, all I did was change the cable as it wasnt long enough.

I know its the right sized cable because thats what the wholesaler said to use"

Just because thats how it was doesnt mean you put it back like it, you have to make sure the circuit complies with current regulation as you have changed/worked on the circuit, that includes the rcd/rcbo thats now required..

As for the wholesaler did he know what wattage the oven was? another reason for them not to sell to joe public.

"anyway all i did was to change old fittings sockets / lights / switches / cooker cable for new & extend the cables thats not under part p as it doesnt include a new circuit "Applaud Smiley (that just about sums up the problem we face as above board sparks)

Well lets just leave it that I will come in friday evening give you a price to get the lounge light working, so that my work complies with regs, you agree to the price I do the work there & then include test & certificate the lounge light. The rest of the kitchen stuff is upto you & the home owner to sort out.

 

[kme]

COOL!!!!