Grenfell, Electrical fault?

[Doc Hudson]

From here:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46363830  we have a statement that: "The fire that engulfed Grenfell Tower probably started due to overheated wiring in a fridge-freezer, according to one expert". Wasn't it a gas explosion in a tower block that prompted the amendments to gas regulations that started all the "Corgi/Gas-Safe" set-up?  Anyone here think that greater electrical regulation should come-about due to Grenfell if it is proved it was electrical fault related?  But I bet nothing happens! 

Doc H.

 

[Sharpend]

Don’t worry Doc, I’m sure the Niceic are on it, there’s got to be another course or affiliation fee from this somewhere. It won’t improve anything realistically but it will give the false creation that somethings being done. 

 

[Andy™]

wiring regs dont cover the appliance that caused the fire anyway

 

[Geoff1946]

I do think there is scope for reviewing the EC and BS  standards to which appliances are built.

The efficiency of (particularly) refrigeration appliances has been driven up in recent years but I do have to wonder if some of the materials now used have reduced their fire resistance. (?)

The high publicity given to risks from  tumble dryers, following numerous incidents, led to design changes but it really shouldn't take that to achieve safe appliances.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Basically as I read it they suggest the root of the problem was a poor joint overheating in what is a relatively low power appliance. So if manufactures can supply appliances with dangerous wiring, surely DIY'ers are just as much, if not more so, prone to leaving dodgy joints that could start electrical fires?  Standards and regulations for appliances needed checking, but still there will be nothing to stop DIY-Bob from doing an equally dangerous bit of wiring. 

John Glover told the inquiry into the blaze that a connector in a Hotpoint FF175BP in flat 16 of the block had a "poor crimp connection".

That meant the wires were not gripped as tightly as they should be and the connector overheated, he said.

Doc H.

 

[Geoff1946]

If there was little or no combustible material close to a failing electrical connection surely a fire would be unlikely to develop?  It's the presence of exposed  flammable thermal insulation that allows and sustains flame in a refrigerator.  

 

[ProDave]

Once again I see the gravy train approaching the poor innocent home owner and forcing something like mandatory PAT testing of all domestic appliances in private homes (which probably would not have detected this fault)

And of course it would not be good enough to allow any electrician to carry out said pat testing, oh no you will have to sign up to a competent persons scheme and have your testing ability assessed every year..........

Yes I AM a cynical old fart.

What value PL insurance would you need?  How much would your insurance company be facing of YOU had declared that fridge safe a week before?  I don't thing £1M or even £2M would come close. 

 

[Sharpend]

Once again the brunt of any changes will fall at the feet of the innocent. When will they get the fact that mfrs cut corners to increase profits. 

 

[Andy™]

(which probably would not have detected this fault)

i doubt anyone would have found a dodgy connection like that on an appliance test

 

[Tony S]

wiring regs dont cover the appliance that caused the fire anyway

It could be used a lever to make AFDD's compulsory even though they have a bad record on "glowing connections".

 

[Phoenix]

I do think there is scope for reviewing the EC and BS  standards to which appliances are built.

The efficiency of (particularly) refrigeration appliances has been driven up in recent years but I do have to wonder if some of the materials now used have reduced their fire resistance. (?)

The high publicity given to risks from  tumble dryers, following numerous incidents, led to design changes but it really shouldn't take that to achieve safe appliances.

Not to mention that in the drive to make stuff greener, CFC refrigerants in domestic white goods have been replaced by hydrocarbon ones, a quick trawl of the net will bring up instances of domestic fridges going bang.

As to fire resistance of materials I am sure of it, when the whole metal consumer unit thing was new, another member on here  mentioned something about the Reach rules: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration,_Evaluation,_Authorisation_and_Restriction_of_Chemicals affecting fire retardants.

I'd seen a video on youtube of a modern plastic consumer unit being tested for flamability alongside an old wooden fuseboard and the former went up easily, now with all this in mind, I tested the cover of an older plastic CU (10-15 years old) that I'd removed during an upgrade. It burnt a bit when exposed to the MAP torch but went out quickly when

removed

I have no doubt that you're right, a lot of stuff made in the last 10 years probably absolete **** for fire resistance compared to similar products from a decade before, this might be on the change though, I do note that my new fridge freezer bought two months ago has a metal back, I ordered it straight away when the old one (with plastic back) started making sounds like the compressor bearings were just about shot!

 

[phil d]

Personally, I don't believe it for one second, I think it's a cover up for something else, almost all of the residents were migrants and some of these have rather strange practices. I  like to watch documentaries on the police and fire services, I watched one, which incidentally has NEVER been repeated  (which speaks volumes) a fire chief was carrying out an inspection on a block of flats. On entering one property, tenented by immigrants, there was a large brazier in the middle of the living room and it was lit, he asked the tenant what was wrong with the central heating and was told that there was nothing wrong, they were just doing what they did back home in Eastern Europe! They even had a metal tripod type device that they used to suspend a cooking pot over the fire!

You have to wonder if something like this was the cause of the Grenfell fire, we'll never know, but if it really was a failed crimp connection, then there needs to be an urgent recall of all identical appliances, because they clearly don't comply with the regs, because as far as I'm aware, any connection must be made within a non-combustible enclosure.

 

[kerching]

if it really was a failed crimp connection, 

This was a nicely repaired "failed crimp connection' yesterday



A quality repair by the in house maintenance team....I think this was done by the gardener

 

[phil d]

I think some of the crimps are appaling, those uninsulated ones can be terrible at times. I once had a girlfriend and her father worked for BICC on the crimp tool manufacturing side, he did quality testing. I remember him telling me that for a crimp tool to make a proper crimp it should only be used with it's mating terminals, BICC tool, then BICC crimp terminals, CEMBRE tool with CEMBRE terminals. I never had any problems with crimp connections, but then again all my tooling and terminals came foc courtesy of BICC.

The worrying thing with crimps is there are still a lot of people out there using the old non -ratchet tools, the quality of the crimp depends upon the strength of the user, most of the firms I used to work for banned them years ago, you weren't even allowed to have them in your toolbox!

 

[Geoff1946]

In the aerospace industry all crimp tools are regularly calibrated, including the production of sample crimps which are subject to a pull-out test.  

 

[Tony S]

There’s now a judge saying flat 16 was an ISIS bomb factory and that the freezer was being used for storing TATP (Triacetone triperoxide) a very unstable explosive.

 

[ProDave]

There’s now a judge saying flat 16 was an ISIS bomb factory and that the freezer was being used for storing TATP (Triacetone triperoxide) a very unstable explosive.

Link to source?

or fake news?

 

[Tony S]

https://newspunch.com/grenfell-tower-fire-isis-bomb/

 

[UNG]

I don't think the real cause of this fire will ever be published, the fridge issue is a bit of a red herring IMO, we are the best part of 18 months on from the fire and no sign of a recall being published yet by Hotpoint would indicate that the risk is pretty low or non existent as LFB would been all over this like a consumer unit on fire

 

[Andy™]

I don't think the real cause of this fire will ever be published, the fridge issue is a bit of a red herring IMO, we are the best part of 18 months on from the fire and no sign of a recall being published yet by Hotpoint would indicate that the risk is pretty low or non existent as LFB would been all over this like a consumer unit on fire

maybe LFB are all over it... getting us to install arc fault breakers instead of getting the manufacturers to do their job properly. similar to trying to get us to install rods everywhere to maintain DNO's network