Handymen (electrical cowboys) part2

[ajay]

Hello,

Thanks for your comments.

As with most things electrical, no one really knows the right answer!

oh....and apologies for calling handymen cowboys. I am sure some of you may be electrically competant (whatever that means), but you may be breaking the law. And if the customer gets a shock (maybe not even related to your work if someone comes in to inspect) you may find yourself in the ****.

From my 2381 days i remember something about not doing 'paid work' -

you can.....

do work on ur own house

do work for payment in kind (for services rendered by a good looking lass?)

do unpaid work - 3 yrs ago i did a like 4 like gas fire replacement for an oap neighbour and i insisted that he not pay me - in case they got gassed! and obviously i know FA about gas stuff.

well, i'll let u know the response from the trading standards, i can visualize loads of ****wits down the council looking into this. nah........they probably binned my enquiry already!

ajay

 

[Andy™]

so you admit you know FA about gas. so why did you replace the fire. you should have tested it correctly to make sure it was installed properly, flue should have been checked and a few others. if something you done did go wrong 'well i didnt get paid your honour' does not excuse you from manslaughter.

whether its paid or unpaid, you still need to be competent to do the work. 2381 2382 & 2391 would be good starting points, although there are many other ways (like an apprenticeship).

To me, it seems you may be the cowboy.

 

[batty]

I certainly would not install a gas fire I have to much to lose even foc.

Batty

 

[Jono Pashley]

I think you may be referring to the Health and safety at work act. Which states all work must be done in a safe manner, etc etc if any payment is received. Neither this document or the Electrical safety at work act stop anyone from working on houses for payment as long as they have the knowledge to work in a safe manner, carry out the work to the regs and notify the right people as and when necessary. BS7671 is the route we take to help us comply with the above, and would be applied to all work paid or not.

Today i contacted Elesca and they confirmed that there is no requirement to be registered and that as long as the handymen arent doing notifiable works and are carrying out the works correctly then they are operating within accordance to part p of the building regs.

Side note is i now need to get myself me 2 jobs ready for inspection because once i finish level 2 and can take 17th(courses clash at both college within a reasonable range) i will be registering.

 

[ajay]

A)

http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq.htm#a4 _____says_____

How do I know if someone is competent to do electrical work?

A person can demonstrate competence to perform electrical work if he or she has successfully completed an assessed training course that has included the type of work being considered, run by an accredited training organisation, and has been able to demonstrate an ability to understand electrical theory and put this into practice.

B)

http://www.competentperson.co.uk/files/consumerbooklet.pdf

C)

http://www.practicaldiy.com/electrics/electrical-building-regs/electrical-part-p.php _____ says _____

Non-notifiable electrical work

Some work is classed as 'non-notifiable', and this work can be carried out by a non-certified individual without notification although, obviously, the individual does need to be competent. Non-notifiable electrical work covers:

Replacement of fittings such as sockets, switches and light fittings.

Replacement of the cable for a single circuit where it has been damaged.

Work that is not in the bathroom or kitchen and consists of:

Adding additional lighting, light fittings and switches, to an existing circuit.

Adding additional sockets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial main.

Installing additional earth bonding.

All this 'non-notifiable electrical work' is conditional upon the use of suitable cable and fittings for the application, that the circuit protective measures are unaffected and suitable for protecting the new circuit, and that all work complies with all other appropriate regulations.

---------------------------------------------------

A&B are from govnt websites, C is not (but looks like it may have been lifted from an official source)

C clearly mentions competence is required, and A defines it.

Looking at this i would say i was right to contact trading standards (if source C is accurate).

Whether i was right or wrong, if only CORGI folk can touch gas, then only PARTP should touch electrics (apart from plug and lamp changes)

For instance, how can the public/untrained know that they need to identify old coloured wires on a skt/sw change. And would they know the bonding requirements for changing over to metal sockets. Do you think a handy man is going to walk away from a changing over to metal skts/switches job if he finds theres no earth on lighting. I doubt it.

ps. please keep discussion on topic. No point commenting on my little gas 'job'. I only used this as an analogy to unpaid work.

 

[Andy™]

Looking at this i would say i was right to contact trading standards (if source C is accurate).

Whether i was right or wrong, if only CORGI folk can touch gas, then only PARTP should touch electrics (apart from plug and lamp changes)

For instance, how can the public/untrained know that they need to identify old coloured wires on a skt/sw change. And would they know the bonding requirements for changing over to metal sockets. Do you think a handy man is going to walk away from a changing over to metal skts/switches job if he finds theres no earth on lighting. I doubt it.

NO, your source quite clearly states that anyone, part p or not can do electrical work like changing like for like. you somehow get to the conclusion that its illegal for them because they are not part p reg'd.

Electrical work is different from corgi/gas safe. for gas work, installer MUST be corgi/gas safe to do ANY gas work, even replacing like for like

for electrical, replacing like for like can be done by anyone competent. note, i said competent, not part p reg'd.

If they want to do notifiable work, they must be either part p reg'd (like most sparks and self-cert work), or notify LABC in advance, who will issue part p cert.

You seem to be trying to justify your claim that someone is doing illegal work, even though the links you provide say they can do it, yet you still say that it says they cant?

As for your last comment on finding no earths, anyone competent should no connect class I equipment. if he was to, then you would have a complaint that you could pass onto trading standards, but until then, stop trying to make life harder for others.

 

[Jono Pashley]

A)http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq.htm#a4 _____says_____

How do I know if someone is competent to do electrical work?

A person can demonstrate competence to perform electrical work if he or she has successfully completed an assessed training course that has included the type of work being considered, run by an accredited training organisation, and has been able to demonstrate an ability to understand electrical theory and put this into practice.

The operative word being can meaning not the only way to prove competence

B)

This clearly shows that they need no registration or notification in order to carry out certain works

C)

http://www.practicaldiy.com/electrics/electrical-building-regs/electrical-part-p.php _____ says _____

Non-notifiable electrical work

Some work is classed as 'non-notifiable', and this work can be carried out by a non-certified individual without notification although, obviously, the individual does need to be competent. Non-notifiable electrical work covers:

Replacement of fittings such as sockets, switches and light fittings.

Replacement of the cable for a single circuit where it has been damaged.

Work that is not in the bathroom or kitchen and consists of:

Adding additional lighting, light fittings and switches, to an existing circuit.

Adding additional sockets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial main.

Installing additional earth bonding.

All this 'non-notifiable electrical work' is conditional upon the use of suitable cable and fittings for the application, that the circuit protective measures are unaffected and suitable for protecting the new circuit, and that all work complies with all other appropriate regulations.

This quite clearly states what they can do without being registered or notifying the local BCO. Extractor fans are not necessarily fitted in kitchens and bathrooms only.

---------------------------------------------------

A&B are from govnt websites, C is not (but looks like it may have been lifted from an official source)

C clearly mentions competence is required, and A defines it.

Looking at this i would say i was right to contact trading standards (if source C is accurate).

Whether i was right or wrong, if only CORGI folk can touch gas, then only PARTP should touch electrics (apart from plug and lamp changes)

For instance, how can the public/untrained know that they need to identify old coloured wires on a skt/sw change. And would they know the bonding requirements for changing over to metal sockets. Do you think a handy man is going to walk away from a changing over to metal skts/switches job if he finds theres no earth on lighting. I doubt it.

ps. please keep discussion on topic. No point commenting on my little gas 'job'. I only used this as an analogy to unpaid work.

Regardless of laws rules etc people will only do as they please. A Handyman should have PLI. This would be invalidated if they did work beyond their skill level. Rouge traders will always operate outside the law because the impact of the restrictive measures needed to exterminate them are not financially realistic.

I repeat that it seems this handyman is operating well within what he knows as seen by what hes listed are mostly taken from the none notifiable section of Approved Doc P. And thus within the law.

 

[D Brennan]

NO, your source quite clearly states that anyone, part p or not can do electrical work like changing like for like. you somehow get to the conclusion that its illegal for them because they are not part p reg'd.Electrical work is different from corgi/gas safe. for gas work, installer MUST be corgi/gas safe to do ANY gas work, even replacing like for like

for electrical, replacing like for like can be done by anyone competent. note, i said competent, not part p reg'd.

If they want to do notifiable work, they must be either part p reg'd (like most sparks and self-cert work), or notify LABC in advance, who will issue part p cert.

You seem to be trying to justify your claim that someone is doing illegal work, even though the links you provide say they can do it, yet you still say that it says they cant?

As for your last comment on finding no earths, anyone competent should no connect class I equipment. if he was to, then you would have a complaint that you could pass onto trading standards, but until then, stop trying to make life harder for others.

If somthing like this went to court what would satisfy competent???

Somone who can prove it ie. fully qualified, apprenticship, or someone who says i no what i am doing

 

[Andy™]

If somthing like this went to court what would satisfy competent???Somone who can prove it ie. fully qualified, apprenticship, or someone who says i no what i am doing

Having qualifications would be a help, but i would imagine there would be someone with good knowledge there who would be questioning you. obviously, if you dont know what your doing, it will catch you quickly. If you are competent and have enough knowledge, you would be able to answer the questions (possibly with the help of 7671) and thus prove competency.

Probably not too far from assessments - they have someone there to assess you, asking questions etc, making sure your competent to carry out the work. You may have the qualifications, but you might still not know and fail an assessment

 

[Apache]

*shakes head*

I can't believe that the OP is worried about a handyman operating within the law but will merrily gas pensioners!

More than double standards.

I think you need to look a little closer to home before reporting people to trading standards!

 

[green-hornet]

Ok lets hit this on the head!

Bloke rings up my fuse has blown and will not come back on.

I go round and find the 2.5mm cable is burned out from the fuse to the first socket.

Great I have some 0.75mm flex in my car, will do the job just fine.

There you go mister all fixed! your fuse works now, some cowboy electrician must have wired it wrong.

Something very wrong with that!! Do you not agree?

Part of being an electrician is to find out why the cable burned out in the first place,Its no good replacing it until the fault is found.

So yes mr handyman can do certain things BUT and this is the difference.

YOU HAVE NO LEGAL REDRESS IF SUCH HANDYMAN AT YOUR REQUEST DID SOMETHING THAT WAS KNOWN BY YOU TO BE AGAINST THE REGULATIONS.NO INSURANCE WOULD BE PAID TO YOU UNDER ANY INSURANCE POLICY, SHOULD SUCH ELECTRICAL ALTERATIONS CAUSE FIRE OR INJURY OR DEATH.

You would be left to fight in civil court against some one who (I only did it as a favour) .

The main problem with part p or any other regulation like corgi, is that the effective enforcement is almost zero.

I would say the best way to combat this is

Any article purchased from an electrical wholesaler that is only used in notifiable work ie:-

bathroom fans, kitchen fans,consumer units,25mm meter tails the list could go on.

The person buying the materials should fill out a form stating where it is intended to be installed and the relevent building control informed.

Unfortunately this will never happen.

I can sleep at night knowing that I have 5million public liability 10 million employers liability,

 

[Andy™]

but there is one big problem with that... part p doesnt effect commercial, which can use same stuff...

certain stuff should only be available to trade though, like DB's etc, unless customer can show wholesaler he has notified LABC of work they plan to do. but like you say, this will never happen. people will keep selling to joe public 'no receipt/questions asked'

 

[Apache]

but there is one big problem with that... part p doesnt effect commercial, which can use same stuff...certain stuff should only be available to trade though, like DB's etc, unless customer can show wholesaler he has notified LABC of work they plan to do. but like you say, this will never happen. people will keep selling to joe public 'no receipt/questions asked'

you can buy a sodding dialysis machine it doesn't make you a doctor.

A DB is not dangerous in itself - lets stop the nanny state and why not let people buy what they want? If we all want a gun to protect our home why shouldn't we be allowed one? Why should the government say we can't have cheap alcohol? Why should we pay so much tax on fuel?

We should be left to make our own decisions not have EVERYTHING legislated.

You'll have to take a bowl of diarrhoea to the chemist to buy Immodium next........

 

[Andy™]

Whilst the DB isnt the dangerous part, some people cant be trusted to install it safely.

just like your ebay link - anyone can buy but doesnt mean they know how to use it

I wouldnt like to see the sales of stuff limited to certain people only, but it may be the only to stop job public buying it and installing it dangerously. but then how far do you go - refuse to sell 13A fuse incase they fit that instead of 5A....

If people wernt so stupid, we wouldnt have this problem (and its partly the customers fault aswell - most people would be suspicious of a builder who can do the walls, plaster, plumbing, gas & electrics all at the same time on his own without help from other trades, but some just think itll save them a few quid and go ahead with it...

 

[green-hornet]

you can buy a sodding dialysis machine it doesn't make you a doctor. A DB is not dangerous in itself - lets stop the nanny state and why not let people buy what they want? If we all want a gun to protect our home why shouldn't we be allowed one? Why should the government say we can't have cheap alcohol? Why should we pay so much tax on fuel?

We should be left to make our own decisions not have EVERYTHING legislated.

You'll have to take a bowl of diarrhoea to the chemist to buy Immodium next........

The problem is if you try to pass yourself off as a doctor you will end up in court and from past case studies recieve imprisonment.

If you pass yourself off as an electrician there is likely to be no enforcement under part p.

The only people who have to date been prosecuted have been so because of diabolical dangers they have been found to have done.

Most electrical dangers go un noticed, until well after the date they where installed.

Why should a builder pay a qualified electrician when he knows best?

Why should a homeowner pay a qualified electrician when they know no difference?

I was asked to quote for a house rewire, pme, with two outbuildings which, I found out were rewired by his brother who was not part p, when I said I know , he asked did I know is brother?. I said no I just know he is not part p because he had exported a pme earthing system to two outdoor buildings, and the garden lighting, oh and lets not forget your hot tub!

The homeowner was totally unaware of the implications.

As are in my view some (handymen)

 

[Evans Electric]

To me , one of the worst things to come about under Part P is their statement , which I assume could quoted in court, that any non- electrically trained , non competent, unregistered person can come to your house and replace , say , a twin socket, you can even do it yourself. So they are saying you need to to know sod all to do that, so its a bit dark in the room and because he is not electrically trained when he has finished he has put the live in the earth term, a child has plugged in the metal table lamp while holding the radiator and is lying dead on the floor.

Whose fault is it ? The handyman ? The inventors of Part P ?