HELP! Huge Bill 4 Tank Replacement, Invoice Nonsensical, Need Help 4 My Mum! :(

[kerching]

I think the whole tenet of the thread is that there was no prior quoting.

having officially been in the trade for 40 plus years i  "imagine, assume and presume nothing".  Also the job is not finished until the Cheque has cleared

 

[Essex1]

Anyhow, where in Wiltshire?

 

[kerching]

Anyhow, where in Wiltshire?

All looks the same to me!

hills, valleys, sheep and cows

near Chippenham 

 

[Essex1]

Wow. You are 15 minutes from me. 

 

[Sharpend]

Would that be Devizes? 

 

[Essex1]

Would that be Devizes? 

Nope. Closer to Chippenham than Devices. 

 

[Sharpend]

That'll be melksham?

 

[binky]

under doorstep selling, you can demand your money back ad-infinitum unless a contract was agreed. Contact trading standards for detailed advice.

 

[Essex1]

That'll be melksham?

Correct sir. 

 

[Doc Hudson]

The op has said that the quote was for removal and replacement of the tank so no theft there.  Once the quote was accepted the tank became the property of the 'tradesman'. It then becomes his own waste so no waste carriers licence required either. 

This is whole saga is awful. Unfortunately it is after the fact now and almost impossible to do anything.

Just because a customer asks you to remove something, it does not automatically become your property. It could easily be remove and leave for other use later. I think you will find your suggestion about waste is also incorrect. Have a quick search of any of the local council websites for their guidance on what is domestic waste and what is commercial waste.  For example from NE Derbyshire website:  http://www.ne-derbyshire.gov.uk/environment-planning/refuse-collection/waste-we-wont-take/
 

Waste left by contractors

This Council will not collect any waste created on household premises by tradesmen i.e. builders, plumbers, decorators, gardeners, electricians, joiners, odd-job men, glaziers, double-glazing installers, central-heating installers, fitted kitchen installers or any other tradesmen. 

All contractors should remove the waste they produce when carrying out any work on your property; they are legally obliged to do this. You could also be guilty of an offence by causing them to evade their legal duty and not dispose of their ‘commercial waste’.

By law, you must check that the tradesman is a registered waste carrier who will dispose of the the waste generated at a registered site - you can be fined up to £5000 if the contractor who did the work for you fly-tips the waste from your property.

Doc H.

 

[kerching]

Wow. You are 15 minutes from me. 

Could be nearer than that!

just been to Wickes in Chippenham with daughter to gets some bits....then Morrisons....living the dream!.....

 

[Essex1]

Just because a customer asks you to remove something, it does not automatically become your property. It could easily be remove and leave for other use later. I think you will find your suggestion about waste is also incorrect. Have a quick search of any of the local council websites for their guidance on what is domestic waste and what is commercial waste.  For example from NE Derbyshire website:  http://www.ne-derbyshire.gov.uk/environment-planning/refuse-collection/waste-we-wont-take/
 

Doc H.

If you quote to remove then it becomes your waste and then your property. 

The question about waste was regarding a waste carriers license not classifications of waste. You do not require a WCL if you are carrying your own waste. 

 

[Sidewinder]

Essex,

I think that there is a very fine line between the two things, depending on how you look at it.

 

[Essex1]

Essex,

I think that there is a very fine line between the two things, depending on how you look at it.

Agreed But if I quote to remove old equipment then surely it becomes my responsibility?  Unless it is specifically requested to be kept by the owner in which case it stays with the owner. 

 

[Sidewinder]

This is the fine line, yes it does become your responsibility.

Is it waste?

Does it have an intrinsic value so it can be sold?

Well, a LOT of so called waste does these days, especially scrap metal.

However, if it can't be immediately re-used in its current form, then is it waste, or recyclable material, or used goods?

I don't have an answer, I'm just trying to suggest that it depends upon how the "materials" are classified, and by whom!

 

[NozSpark]

Look guys,,, like I and Binky have said..

The easiest legal way to get out of paying this bill would more than likely be the doorstep selling regulations... If he didn't follow those regulations then any contract that he thinks he has with the OP's mother is null and void so the OP could easily refuse to pay and if taken to court they will win

 

[Doc Hudson]

Agreed But if I quote to remove old equipment then surely it becomes my responsibility?  Unless it is specifically requested to be kept by the owner in which case it stays with the owner. 

This concept was debated a long time ago on the forum when the waste carriers license was introduced. In addition to who owns the waste is the difference between normal domestic waste and trade or commercial waste generated by a business or a trades person. Although a DIY person could quite legitimately be removing and disposing of their own water cylinder, as a general rule it would not be considered as normal household waste and if there is a written contract for collection, removal, disposal of the item and the person is a recognised trades person or business partner, director, employee etc. then if any investigations were made I would guess that it is more likely to be classed as trade waste rather than personal waste.  However the concept you describe is that approach adopted by 99.999% of self employed tradesmen who then go and drop their "trade waste" at their local domestic waste site without incurring any trade waste fees! As Sidewinder said, Its a fine line, as long as no one flags you up telling tales that you have removed waste as part of your business then I doubt anyone will ever bat an eyelid

Doc H. 

 

[steptoe]

Funnily enough I was looking into this waste thing over the weekend, for a friend of mine that wanted to borrow my van as the council refused to take away some doors he had replaced,

In our council area it doesn't distinguish very well between trade and diy, but, basically, anything that would he consider a skilled tradesman's job the waste is classes as trade waste, doesn't matter if you DIYed it or not, it's trade waste and they treat it as such, they list a few things, such as replacing shelving, as being DIY, hanging doors is NOT, neither is any form of electrical waste (including bulbs/lamps), plaster waste, plasterboard, bricks cement etc are also all trade waste, funny thing, 450mm flags are diy, 600mm flags are trade, :C

They will come and collect old household appliances though, for a fee, £15 iirc, which isn't bad I suppose,

Now the really funny bit, even though all that stuff is classes as trade waste, and they won't collect it, the local domestic waste site has bins for it all, it just has a barrier that won't allow vans in,,

Throw it in the back of the wife's car and it's all good,

They even have a bin for cable, but I don't think that's where the wife takes her cable......

 

[Essex1]

We are going off topic but what you can take to your local council waste depot has nothing to do with a Waste Carriers Licence. 

 

[Dawn]

Hi again guys,

   Again, can’t thank you enough for all your advice and support – not to mention inducting me to the fascinating and nuanced world of trade waste removal!! :Applaud

   Will try to answer some of your follow-up questions…

Invoice – attached is a copy. Ignore the scribbles, they’re mine from before I posted here. But the invoice shows what she’s paid already and what he says is owing.

Special Location / Kerching are right, I can confirm the invoice was given to my mum AFTER the tank had been removed. Will double check with her but it sounds like that wasn’t discussed in advance.

Disappearing Tank – that was not agreed in advance and we haven’t the foggiest clue what he’s done with it. Should I ask for it to be returned if possible? Would that actually prove that he’d broken it?

Combi Boiler – Mum runs on Economy 7. It’s just her, a lodger and sometimes me here so hot water needs are pretty low – primary concern is saving money. Would a combi boiler actually be cheaper? And can it run with Economy 7? (Mum has it in her head that Economy 7 is the cheapest way of running things…)

Timer – timer hasn’t been replaced yet. My mum has called my granddad’s plumber, who it looks like will take over, and we’ve agreed to leave the original timer in place for now so we can make sure it’s actually broken before they get swapped. I doubt it is.

Doorstep Selling Regs – definitely looks like he hasn’t complied with these. Thanks NozSpark for the link, super helpful!

I guess the next step is to stick all this in a letter arguing we don't owe him anything, for a start... but what else should it say, do you think? Is it worth asking for the tank to be returned, and entrusting the new plumber to assess/deal with it?

Again, thanks a million - you guys rock, I will be using this website for the rest of my life!! ROTFWL