Horizontal Cable Zones

[OnOff]

Had an interesting conversation today at work with a subbie who came in. He works as an AC engineer has his 236, 16th, AM's etc. He has just signed up for his 2391 and is going with NAPIT as keeps getting asked to do domestics. He has been asked to rewire a kitchen after a fire as in all new sockets etc. He openly said he did his 16th "5 or 6 years ago". We got to discussing sockets above the worktops and I maintained there was nothing wrong with running the T&E horizontally between sockets above a worktop as that is in the prescribed zone. I argued it saves shed loads of cable, shortens the overall run etc especially if you have a lot to fit. His argument against was "What if they want to fit hooks etc?".

It's not me missing something here is it? What surprised me was what he said next: Apparently, when he has done kitchens before he drops out from underneath each socket then "loops" back up to the next. He keeps the T&E buried above the worktop but underneath "cos there's that space behind the units" he brings the T&E out of the chase with a clip here and there bunched up as required with cable ties. Presume this is to save on chasing? I then said "So for sockets under the worktop you go surface?" to which he said "Yes!".

There's me thinking that putting everything under capping, above and below with sunk in back boxes was the proper way to go. Even my sockets underneath are at the proper heights with neat access holes cut in the cupboard backs. I think bunched T&E would be ideal for water to run down etc.

He's a nice bloke, just wondering if he does it like this his NAPIT man will tear him a new one?

 

[Sharpend]

I don't personally like to go horizontal between kitchen sockets above worktop, purely for the argument already given, but perfectly allowed in regs zone.

As for his other install methods I would suggest that he may come undone when Napit assessment comes round.

However I have seen many a kitchen with the circuit cables installed in MT4 at low level ( below worktop)with chases up to the socket positions.

 

[Evans Electric]

First thing , Onoff, he,s got the typical Spark's "Whatif" complaint .

A lot of us have got it for some reason , I think its due too the huge amount of rules & Regs we have to consider berfore we strike a blow.

In his case " What if they fit some hooks" Well sorry but run cable in safe zones and stop trying to predict what some unknown person may or may not decide to do at any given time in the future .

In your case ( no offense impied) you are thinking about some possible water leak that may or may not occur , which is oout of your control.

I do kitchen plugs either vertical drops (often on new work)

Horizontal straight line between sockets above w/tops.

Or installing just before the fitters, some YT4 fixed to wall (not too neat) within the service spaces, and chased in above the w/top.

Sockets in cupboards , leave loop for fitters to drill for and pull through (Or not if they're pratts) ready for surface box /socket.

Note operative word "Service Space/duct" (Plumbing/elects/waste/gas.)

Just another point , you say he " Openly addmitted to doing his 16th 5-6 years ago " OMG!! I did it some 20 years ago was it , when it came in, and the 15th when you didn't have to do anything, and the 14th when you did even less . He's doing the 17th so wheres the problem .

NAPITT will wecome him with open arms ,like a long lost son, take my word .

 

[sb_89]

Yeah, I agree I also go horizontal in the safe zone , I do the same as onoff with all my cables chased and capped behind the cupboards, with access holes. All so socket outlets should be in the fabric of the building , and I'm not wholly convinced that the inside of the cupboard counts as fabric of the building.

 

[OnOff]

"Just another point , you say he " Openly addmitted to doing his 16th 5-6 years ago " OMG!! I did it some 20 years ago was it , when it came in, and the 15th when you didn't have to do anything, and the 14th when you did even less . He's doing the 17th so wheres the problem .

"

Sorry, not a dig. It was more that he was quite open about not being too aware of current regs, more so Part P and M on things like the socket / switches heights etc.

 

[Evans Electric]

I did a post yonks ago on here ,complete with pencil drawing , of some work a subby did for us in some classrooms.

He suffered from "Can't run horizontally between sockets" syndrome.

So in 20mm steel conduit he made this goalpost shaped conduit work between all the plugs that went from dado height ,up to the ceiling and back to the next socket.

The university Clerk of Works (Elect) nearly had a siezure.

Theres another post where another subby suffered from " Can't pass a neutral through a switchbox"

This is still there for all to see at B,ham City Hospital .

Steel conduit comes through floor from basement to feed new stairs lighting, it goes up to a tee box about 3 mtrs high and carries on up,then from the tee a piece with right angle comes back down next to the riser to a switch box at 4'6" . Because you can't have a neutral in a switchbox !!!!!!!

All the other stairs we had done ,tube went straight through the switchbox, incoming live-neutral from the basement board.

Many guys mis-read " You can't switch the neutral" as can't pass it through a box.

Same guy maintained that a 30A /30mA RCD would trip out on overload @ 30A (Still a lot of those about too)

Went totally barmy at me when I tried to tell him ,called me for everything so I left him believing he was right and got shut of him a week later.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 18:32 ---------- Previous post was made at 18:27 ----------

Yeah, I agree I also go horizontal in the safe zone , I do the same as onoff with all my cables chased and capped behind the cupboards, with access holes. All so socket outlets should be in the fabric of the building , and I'm not wholly convinced that the inside of the cupboard counts as fabric of the building.

Don't quite see your logic there SB , not having a dig, just don't see what is to be gained.

 

[sb_89]

I suppose I do it so the kitchen fitters have as little to do with my install as possible lol, and the cupboards can be removed without the need to disconnect anything, not a big deal tbh

 

[ProDave]

Yes horizontal between sockets is fine.

The trouble with dropping down below worktop then going horizontal, is that horizontal section will be outside zones, so surface or mechanical protection is needed.

You may say that's daft as it's not in danger (other than the kitchen fitter screwing the units through a cable) but we don't make the rules.

The BIGGEST problem with safe zones, is that the only people who know about them are electricians. The average householder doesn't.

Consider a 13A socket on a wall fed from above, cable running down to the socket in a safe zone. House owner wants to hang a picture. He want's it to look aesthetically pleasing, so he carefully measures the centre of the socket, projects a line up the wall, and hammers in a nail exactly on the centreline of the socket.......

I don't always think the rules are thought through very carefully.

 

[alpha spark]

If u can't run a neutral through a switch then y the hell do they make double pole light switches

 

[ProDave]

Theres another post where another subby suffered from " Can't pass a neutral through a switchbox" This is still there for all to see at B,ham City Hospital .

Steel conduit comes through floor from basement to feed new stairs lighting, it goes up to a tee box about 3 mtrs high and carries on up,then from the tee a piece with right angle comes back down next to the riser to a switch box at 4'6" . Because you can't have a neutral in a switchbox !!!!!!!

All the other stairs we had done ,tube went straight through the switchbox, incoming live-neutral from the basement board.

Many guys mis-read " You can't switch the neutral" as can't pass it through a box.

If that was the case, then "loop at the switch" would be illegal, as that ALWAYS has a neutral passing through the switch back box.

 

[Sharpend]

Yes horizontal between sockets is fine.The trouble with dropping down below worktop then going horizontal, is that horizontal section will be outside zones, so surface or mechanical protection is needed.

You may say that's daft as it's not in danger (other than the kitchen fitter screwing the units through a cable) but we don't make the rules.

The BIGGEST problem with safe zones, is that the only people who know about them are electricians. The average householder doesn't.

Consider a 13A socket on a wall fed from above, cable running down to the socket in a safe zone. House owner wants to hang a picture. He want's it to look aesthetically pleasing, so he carefully measures the centre of the socket, projects a line up the wall, and hammers in a nail exactly on the centreline of the socket.......

I don't always think the rules are thought through very carefully.

As one electrician put it too me, the vertical drop is in zone from the fused spur/socket and the horizontal cable is in zone from the low level socket, horizontal. Not that I agre with that.

It was then agreed the cable from the socket above worktop to the low level socket should go horizontally first as within zone between sockets above the worktop then drop down to the low level socket as it is then in zone with the vertical drop.

You decide.

Either way a cable has too get to the low level socket somehow.

 

[OnOff]

Yes horizontal between sockets is fine.The trouble with dropping down below worktop then going horizontal, is that horizontal section will be outside zones, so surface or mechanical protection is needed.

You may say that's daft as it's not in danger (other than the kitchen fitter screwing the units through a cable) but we don't make the rules.

The BIGGEST problem with safe zones, is that the only people who know about them are electricians. The average householder doesn't.

Consider a 13A socket on a wall fed from above, cable running down to the socket in a safe zone. House owner wants to hang a picture. He want's it to look aesthetically pleasing, so he carefully measures the centre of the socket, projects a line up the wall, and hammers in a nail exactly on the centreline of the socket.......

I don't always think the rules are thought through very carefully.

I always worry about the 150mm from the ceiling zone as in "I'll just pop a couple of nails in to hold the coving up while it dries!". Ditto the 150mm either side of an internal corner - perfect place for shelving brackets!

 

[ProDave]

As one electrician put it too me, the vertical drop is in zone from the fused spur/socket and the horizontal cable is in zone from the low level socket, horizontal. Not that I agre with that. It was then agreed the cable from the socket above worktop to the low level socket should go horizontally first as within zone between sockets above the worktop then drop down to the low level socket as it is then in zone with the vertical drop.

You decide.

Either way a cable has too get to the low level socket somehow.

I think I follow that.

BUT when I put a low level socket for a fridge or a washing machine, I tend to put them VERY low down the wall, because generally, washing machines and fridges have less sticky out bits on the back right low down, so more clearance for the socket and it's plug.

So to follow your logic, you would have to run the drops very low down to get into my low down under unit safe zone.

 

[Evans Electric]

If u can't run a neutral through a switch then y the hell do they make double pole light switches

Well you can't tell some of these guys , the fact that it can run through every other type of box there is doesn't seem to dawn on them.

It was certainly quite a widespread misunderstanding .

Another one was "You can't fit a pendant in a kitchen" only a batten holder or other.

 

[sb_89]

he,s got the typical Spark's "Whatif" complaint .

A lot of us have got it for some reason , I think its due too the huge amount of rules & Regs we have to consider berfore we strike a blow.

In his case " What if they fit some hooks" Well sorry but run cable in safe zones and stop trying to predict what some unknown person may or may not decide to do at any given time in the future .

I agree with Evans, you run your cables in the safe zone, you can't install your cables on ' what ifs'

And If someone is stupid enough to hang a picture directly above a socket, they are stupid enough to pay me to fix it

 

[OnOff]

"I think I follow that.

BUT when I put a low level socket for a fridge or a washing machine, I tend to put them VERY low down the wall, because generally, washing machines and fridges have less sticky out bits on the back right low down, so more clearance for the socket and it's plug.

So to follow your logic, you would have to run the drops very low down to get into my low down under unit safe zone"

So, for example, new circuit in the kitchen should you still not be adhering to socket heights to comply with Part M etc? I like the fridge etc socket at the back of an adjacent cupboard with a hole in the back for accessing the plugs. The "low" socket is DIRECTLY below one above the worktop on the ring and is itself on the ring. So all accessible and in the safe zones.

View attachment 3161

(the socket for the fridge and freezer is through the round hole under where the cat food's stored!)

p.s. Optical illusion with that socket above the worktop - it's actually 6" from the top of the worktop to the bottom of the socket!

 

[ProDave]

So, for example, new circuit in the kitchen should you still not be adhering to socket heights to comply with Part M etc? I like the fridge etc socket at the back of an adjacent cupboard with a hole in the back for accessing the plugs. The "low" socket is DIRECTLY below one above the worktop on the ring and is itself on the ring. So all accessible and in the safe zones.View attachment 3161

(the socket for the fridge and freezer is through the round hole under where the cat food's stored!)

Part M only applies to general purpose sockets. Dedicated sockets can be any height.

I don't normally put sockets behind a unit like that. Would be a nightmare to remove the front for repair or even inspection.

I put them flush into the wall right behind the appliance, but as I have said, because of all the sticky out bits, I find putting them really low down is best. I really do mean low down, almost touching the floor, just leaving enough room for the bend radius of the cable exiting the plug.

 

[Sidewinder]

Had an interesting conversation today at work with a subbie who came in. He works as an AC engineer has his 236, 16th, AM's etc. He has just signed up for his 2391 and is going with NAPIT as keeps getting asked to do domestics. He has been asked to rewire a kitchen after a fire as in all new sockets etc. He openly said he did his 16th "5 or 6 years ago". We got to discussing sockets above the worktops and I maintained there was nothing wrong with running the T&E horizontally between sockets above a worktop as that is in the prescribed zone. I argued it saves shed loads of cable, shortens the overall run etc especially if you have a lot to fit. His argument against was "What if they want to fit hooks etc?". It's not me missing something here is it? What surprised me was what he said next: Apparently, when he has done kitchens before he drops out from underneath each socket then "loops" back up to the next. He keeps the T&E buried above the worktop but underneath "cos there's that space behind the units" he brings the T&E out of the chase with a clip here and there bunched up as required with cable ties. Presume this is to save on chasing? I then said "So for sockets under the worktop you go surface?" to which he said "Yes!".

There's me thinking that putting everything under capping, above and below with sunk in back boxes was the proper way to go. Even my sockets underneath are at the proper heights with neat access holes cut in the cupboard backs. I think bunched T&E would be ideal for water to run down etc.

He's a nice bloke, just wondering if he does it like this his NAPIT man will tear him a new one?

OnOff,

I'll second everything the others have said.

What you are doing is what PC Electrics & I would term as DFMEA's = Design Failure Modes & Effects Analysis.

I think that it is something a lot of sparks do as they so often get their work trashed by other trades & the householder because they are thoughtless, so the spark has to 2nd guess them.

It is a very professional attitude to take, but it will not earn you any extra.

The customer will probably not think any more of you either!

If you have done FMEA's or numerical risk assessments then there is one other thing you must consider. probability.

Is it probable that this will happen or just possible?

I hope that the "infinite improbability drive" is just a figment of Douglas Adams imagination, thus there are very improbable situations out there that we really don't need to consider!

We can get too hung up on "what if" scenarios.

HTH.

 

[OnOff]

Part M only applies to general purpose sockets. Dedicated sockets can be any height.I don't normally put sockets behind a unit like that. Would be a nightmare to remove the front for repair or even inspection.

I put them flush into the wall right behind the appliance, but as I have said, because of all the sticky out bits, I find putting them really low down is best. I really do mean low down, almost touching the floor, just leaving enough room for the bend radius of the cable exiting the plug.

Fair point, saving grace with this one is it's a 400mm unit and only held in by 2 screws to the 1000mm base unit to the left so it will slide out. Having them so low as you say - like the idea of just whipping the plinth off and unplugging - but could you be getting into flood risk territory?

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 19:49 ---------- Previous post was made at 19:47 ----------

OnOff,I'll second everything the others have said.

What you are doing is what PC Electrics & I would term as DFMEA's = Design Failure Modes & Effects Analysis.

I think that it is something a lot of sparks do as they so often get their work trashed by other trades & the householder because they are thoughtless, so the spark has to 2nd guess them.

It is a very professional attitude to take, but it will not earn you any extra.

The customer will probably not think any more of you either!

If you have done FMEA's or numerical risk assessments then there is one other thing you must consider. probability.

Is it probable that this will happen or just possible?

I hope that the "infinite improbability drive" is just a figment of Douglas Adams imagination, thus there are very improbable situations out there that we really don't need to consider!

We can get too hung up on "what if" scenarios.

HTH.

"42"

 

[Sidewinder]

I know Slartibartfast!

So I guess you get where I am going them.

Seriously I used to roadie for a band called Slartibartfast!