I Have Been Advised My Re-Wire Job Is Dangerous

[Steve3948]

Manator - However this is what SL is stating, if they go to court they could lose, because it may be difficult to prove that anything is actually wrong, especially with no written contract stating what they have agreed to have done, the court would simply throw it out.

I understand the NIC have been involved and they normally follow up if something has actually been done incorrectly.

Earlier this year we carried out rectification work on 3 shower installs for the NIC through their insurance where the circuits were wired incorrectly with 6.0mm² instead of 10.0mm², the client had asked the installer to come back after BG Homserve refused to replace a burnt out pull switch to one of the showers, stating the cable was undersized, although loose connection was most likely cause.

The contractor refused to go back and left the NIC scheme. The NIC then contacted us to price and rectify, this apparently took just under a year from complaint to rectification. 

 

[Andy™]

Earlier this year we carried out rectification work on 3 shower installs for the NIC through their insurance where the circuits were wired incorrectly with 6.0mm² instead of 10.0mm², the client had asked the installer to come back after BG Homserve refused to replace a burnt out pull switch to one of the showers, stating the cable was undersized, although loose connection was most likely cause.

The contractor refused to go back and left the NIC scheme. The NIC then contacted us to price and rectify, this apparently took just under a year from complaint to rectification. 

did the shower actually need 10mm, or was 6mm adequate?

 

[ProDave]

If the contractor has summonsed you to court for non payment, then you need to counter claim for the work not being done properly.

The court should then decide both issues. 

 

[Steve3948]

did the shower actually need 10mm, or was 6mm adequate?

Andy - Did all the calc's and indeed it was 10mm, with insulation in partition and ceiling space.

 

[Andy™]

Andy - Did all the calc's and indeed it was 10mm, with insulation in partition and ceiling space.

fair enough. would be different if the 6mm did comply though

 

[GeorgeP]

I wouldn`t bother going to NIC over the cat 5 - they`ll just say that`s out of their jurisdiction, and they have no powers whatsoever ( not they they have much anywhere except copyright theft.....)

It really annoys me to see the way the NIC have prostituted their standards and morals to the highest bidder, and seem to have no thought for the end user whatsoever. Makes me ashamed to be a member of their organisation,

Yes, as a customer they didn't really back us up at all whatsoever.  They had, excuse my french, no balls on behalf of the customer and were very gentle with this electrician considering he's made such a mess of it compared to what a competent electrician would have done.  Sounds like Steptoe would have done a fantastic job so sorry we didn't find him or someone like him in the first place.  NICEIC seem to have the attitude of "well you employed him........"

If the contractor has summonsed you to court for non payment, then you need to counter claim for the work not being done properly.

The court should then decide both issues. 

We have done that and the court say they want an expert witness.  Husband is against asking NICEIC inspector to be the expert witness.  I thought that would have been the first port of call.  

Just had a skim-read back through some of this...

TBH I think you need to stop and reconsider exactly what it is you are hoping to achive...

and have you got a water-tight case to achieve what you want???

Because from the bits I have read I am not convinced there is an abundance of evidence in your favour...

Maybe I've missed something.. dunno... 

but heres my reasoning.

1/ Is there actually a clear proven immediate danger due to poor work...? 

or its it just some "non-hazardous" shoddy work.????

There can be plenty of work that does not comply with BS7671..

but that does NOT mean it is an immediate danger!!

(and you can't be prosecuted for untidy work.)

2/ Is there a paper trail of letters, quotes, contracts, electrical certificates, invoices, complaints letters & replies etc..

Detailing an unambiguous schedule of work that both yourself and the contractor agreed to..?

I would suggest that it is common knowledge that loads of consumer guidance, sites, programs, books etc..   ALL recommend getting multiple written quotes before agreeing to any substantial home improvement work...

Although verbal agreements are still an acceptable legal contract..   They are more difficult to prove!!

If a customer is daft enough not to get any form of written agreement then they are asking for trouble...

And if something did go to court, it could well be determined as a 50/50 liabilty..

So neither party pays anything to the other..

But they still both have to cover their legal costs!

I get the impression most of it has been word-of-mouth agreements??

3/ If you are planning to try the media route...

Then stop and think what the TV / Radio / Press are looking for..

A good story to attract readers/viewers/listeners..

Their prime concern is not actually resolving your problem...

it is about boosting their ratings!!!!!

They will receive 1000's of similar complaints every year...

and if they are considering getting involved in your complaint, they will be looking for a good paper trail of evidence to back-up the story...

Otherwise they stand the risk of counter claim by the contractor for something like slander, liable or deformation of character / buisness...

4/ Irrespective of what trade you are talking about...

If bad work has been complained about the original contractor should be given opportunity to put right any mistakes....  (thought I read somewhere that you have not allowed the original guy back???)

And there is always more than one way to wire a property...

5 different electricians may all adopt different installation methods..

But is does not mean that 1 is right and 4 are wrong...

All 5 could still be right!!!

5/ The contractor saying he'll take you to court is probably following the exactly same advice that has been given on this forum numerous times about non-paying customers...  

Send then a CCJ letter for the amount owed!

So as I said at the start..

What exactly is the final outcome you are aiming for.....?

How much will that cost...     Time / effort / hassle & money...

If you don't have a cast-iron case...

what are the risks if you lose any legal battle....?

You have to balance that against cutting your losses and just getting the job finished by another contractor!

Sorry if thats not very positive or hopeful from your perspective ...

Obviously you have more detail than we can see on the forum...

But from what I have read I don't think it is all 100% in your favour!

:coffee

Thanks for this!  What has happened is that we have paid £4,600 for the job already.  He is now asking for up to £2k more.  Having spoken to Trading Standards they say that due to all the hassle and having to live with the bad aspects of the job still ie, poor design and wonky switches we should be right to question him asking for any more money.  He is taking us to court for completing the job after NICEIC coming round three times and making him put things right.  We say we don't want to pay more than 4.6k because it wasn't up to the standard of a competent contractor. 

If you have nothing in writing then how can he prove that you were meant to pay £ x for x amount of work

He gave us an invoice. 

 

[NozSpark]

An invoice is not a contract.

First off he should have at least given you an estimate for the works, he should have also given you a cooling off notice which gives you up to 14 days from that period to cancel the contract... If he didn't give you a cooling off notice then any contract is unlawful.. If there were any changes to the contract then he should have given you written notice of those changes/alterations with an estimated cost

IIRC there have been cases where cooling off notices/periods haven't been given/adhered to as the contract has been deemed null and void... That might be an avenue for you to pursue?

 

[Andy™]

cooling off thing may not apply here, the job may have been started before it was required, the job and problems have been going on a while

 

[Steve3948]

An invoice is not a contract.

First off he should have at least given you an estimate for the works, he should have also given you a cooling off notice which gives you up to 14 days from that period to cancel the contract... If he didn't give you a cooling off notice then any contract is unlawful.. If there were any changes to the contract then he should have given you written notice of those changes/alterations with an estimated cost

IIRC there have been cases where cooling off notices/periods haven't been given/adhered to as the contract has been deemed null and void... That might be an avenue for you to pursue?

Agree, but if the price was 6k and you pay 4k in essence you have agreed to the price by paying part of it.

We have a couple of times had issues with final payment and the fact they have made payment toward the total amount always wins in court.

 

[Sharpend]

What is the extra £2k for? Is it in addition due to the number of return visits as requested by Niceic? Or is this part of the original bill?

 

[Doc Hudson]

cooling off thing may not apply here, the job may have been started before it was required, the job and problems have been going on a while

The 7day cooling off period has been around for a few years now, this guidance from th CAB refers to some 2008 legislation.   http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_different_ways_of_buying_e/consumer_buying_on_the_doorstep_e/consumer_cancelling_a_doorstep_sale_e/doorstep_sales_-_when_you_can_cancel.htm And this other Gov.UK web page says you cannot enforce a contract unless you have given the customer a right to cancel. https://www.gov.uk/doorstep-selling-regulations. Whether these are applicable in this instance is another thing though? Obviously this particular case is not a straight forward easy to resolve issue, but whatever additional rules do or don't apply I always understood that standard contracts or terms and conditions state that any materials fitted remain the property of the contractor until full payment has been received. So if this matter is still unresolved the electrician may be able to pursue recovering all of his cable & accessories?

Doc H.

 

[GeorgeP]

What is the extra £2k for? Is it in addition due to the number of return visits as requested by Niceic? Or is this part of the original bill?

It's part of the original bill.  But after speaking to Trading Standards there seems to be a case for not paying a whole amount if the job isn't worth that amount.

With lack of an expert witness we will have to send photographs of his shoddy work and e-mails from NICEIC.  Not sure that will suffice. Ringing NICEIC this morning to try and get dates and copies of the ongoing problem. 

 

[Steve3948]

I think the job is worth whatever you agreed in the first place to be honest.

Its like getting 3 quotes of say 1k, 2k and 3k, for the same job, you choose the 3k contractor but then say to him that you are only paying 1k because that's what its worth.

As SL said in his post if the job is dangerous and unsafe, then firstly he must be allowed to put it right before final payment.

If he refuses then the NIC would step in, but only if its dangerous, unsafe or not to the regulations.

If its an untidy install then all this guys work will most likely be like this, and its down to you to see what his work and reputation is like with regard to good standard of work and generally being a tidy and neat installer, it's not the NIC's job to check this, they are only concerned with work complying.

I don't think you are going to have much luck with this to be honest, it's a lesson learned and I would pay him up and move on, or else you will never see the end of this and it may cost you a whole lot more.

 

[Sharpend]

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with the lads here.

Whether you could negotiate either a days tidying up the job or a marginal goodwill gesture may be as far as you will get, as said if it's not dangerous or non compliant?

Am I right in thinking that Steps has seen the workmanship? Perhaps he would be in best position to advise as to compliance/danger concerns?

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Playing the devils advocate here a minute...

just looking at the overall picture and what are generally accepted common work practices within the industry...

You have a substantial renovation improvement program involving £6000 worth of electrical work that was verbally agreed with a contractor.

Small 1 or 2 day projects probably less than £750 would often just be left for the electrician to organise & complete at a mutually convenient time schedule..

Larger multi-trade long term projects probably greater than £3000 would often have a project manager or interim update meetings with the person ordering the work...

as it is very common for unforeseen issues to arise during a longer project.. 

or for changes in the specification as additions not originally considered are brought into the job spec.

e.g. once floors are opened up or loft voids investigated closer there may be other issues to resolve.

So as your work was presumably a longer term project..

You would think that some form of interim progress meetings / discussions / texts / e-mails were had a suitable stages of the work? 

Surely all of these issue have not suddenly come to light at the end of the project?

If there were problems or issues with the work why were they not addressed earlier on ?

( It is always the customer ordering and paying for the work who has ultimate control of a project..

They have the power to tell all subcontractors to leave site and stop work if they so wish! )

The contractor could quite legitimately say they thought everything was all going fine with the project as no complaints were received during the work and £4000 part payment has already been made.... 

And as a trader trying to run a business, still waiting several months on, for an agreed final payment of £2000, it is impairing the business cash-flow..

The first post on here is back in March 2013.. so guess we are talking 18month+ since work originally agreed/commenced..?

Do you have any registered signed for dated letters or other correspondence, identifying the timescales when the problems started?

By this I mean your written complaints to the contractor and the contractors reply to you..

(not the NIC bits you mentioned)..  as these should have been the first stage of any complaints procedure..

Speak the the contractor give him/her chance to resolve your complaint..

If still not satisfied then you escalate it..

I still can't see from what I have read that you actually have any written agreements of the work to be done

or the initial complaints you made to the contractor.  It sounds like its just a your word against theirs argument..

I will wish you luck in resolving your problem, but..  honestly I still don't think you are guaranteed to win anything..

Unless you can produce some significant other information that you haven't already told us?

:coffee

 

[GeorgeP]

Thank you for all comments since last post.  I see where you are coming from.  Next stage is supplying evidence, ie, e-mails between contractor and ourselves, photographs etc.  I will see what my other half thinks.  The customer always seems to have to fight.  Paying full price for what we have ended up with is a sham. I wish this guy just had some self awareness but he's a complete t**t.  And I only use that word when ah'm a steamin!  ]  for the rest of my days in this house I will be constantly reminded every time I switch on/off a downstairs light.  The TV managed to switch itself off twice last week.  Total mystery.  It's a Smart and the standby light was still on.......  h34r: