Led Ceiling panel wiring.

[ProDave]

So this is a commercial building as mentioned in the post above, so no need for a metal CU. You can still buy the plastic ones  for such use.  But is that the ONLY reason he recommended it's replacement? Does the existing one have rcd protection for instance? And is the rest of the wiring in such a poor state that it may not pass the testing we have to do when changing a consumer unit?

£800 to check and certify someone's install does seem rather high to me. There is still part of this you are not telling us.

Nobody "throws the 17th edition around to raise our prices" but that is the regulations we have to work to. So it is not always possible to "just add a few lights" without rectifying some existing deficiencies with an installation which may include things like earth bonding, new consumer unit.  No doubt if you keep asking enough people, you will eventually find a cowboy willing to ignore the wiring regs and just do it.

What has kitchen fitters got to do with it. They are subject to the same regulations as anyone else, but amongst them is probably a higher percentage of cowboys willing to ignore the regs and bodge something.

 

[Lurch]

£800 to check and certify someone's install does seem rather high to me. There is still part of this you are not telling us.

Or you have not understood what the £800 covers.

 

[Bassi]

Or you have not understood what the £800 covers.

Includes all materials , cost of qualified electrician to check and make final connections and issue certificate.

 

[Bassi]

So this is a commercial building as mentioned in the post above, so no need for a metal CU. You can still buy the plastic ones  for such use.  But is that the ONLY reason he recommended it's replacement? Does the existing one have rcd protection for instance? And is the rest of the wiring in such a poor state that it may not pass the testing we have to do when changing a consumer unit?

£800 to check and certify someone's install does seem rather high to me. There is still part of this you are not telling us.

Nobody "throws the 17th edition around to raise our prices" but that is the regulations we have to work to. So it is not always possible to "just add a few lights" without rectifying some existing deficiencies with an installation which may include things like earth bonding, new consumer unit.  No doubt if you keep asking enough people, you will eventually find a cowboy willing to ignore the wiring regs and just do it.

What has kitchen fitters got to do with it. They are subject to the same regulations as anyone else, but amongst them is probably a higher percentage of cowboys willing to ignore the regs and bodge something.

Dave at least 4 electricians told me about 17th Edition and why it had inflated their quote.

The regulations are contradictory and open to interpretation as well and it seems that many have their own interpretation.

Then I had several more willing to break the law and avoid VAT asking for cash payments.

All in all very messy and does not put your industry in a good light.

Kitchen fitters have less training and experience, but are allowed to carry out electrical work. In my day an electrician served an apprenticeship of several years and actually knew what he/she was doing, before being allowed to call themselves a qualified electrician.

In my day he turned up in a well worn transit, rather than a flash vehicle with carlos van dango wheels and a personalised registration, he had a young apprentice with him who he teased and abused mercilessly  and had not learned his quoting skills from the local mechanic, which includes a sharp intake of breath as he looks at the consumer unit. He did a great job at a fair price and it lasted for 30 years plus and if you called him back to add a socket , he would do it for a drink.

I think at 62 I am too old to accept the modern way.

Apart from the helpful people that have helped me get done what needed to be done , as a newcomer to a DIY forum, who politely asked for help , I have felt threatened, abused and insulted.

Which is exactly what I felt from the cowboy electricians that quoted me.

I will delete myself from this forum and that will be the end of it, but you really spoil it for the people that need help and the wonderful people that give help.

 

[steptoe]

Dave at least 4 electricians told me about 17th Edition and why it had inflated their quote.

The regulations are contradictory and open to interpretation as well and it seems that many have their own interpretation.

Then I had several more willing to break the law and avoid VAT asking for cash payments.

All in all very messy and does not put your industry in a good light.

Kitchen fitters have less training and experience, but are allowed to carry out electrical work. In my day an electrician served an apprenticeship of several years and actually knew what he/she was doing, before being allowed to call themselves a qualified electrician.

In my day he turned up in a well worn transit, rather than a flash vehicle with carlos van dango wheels and a personalised registration, he had a young apprentice with him who he teased and abused mercilessly  and had not learned his quoting skills from the local mechanic, which includes a sharp intake of breath as he looks at the consumer unit. He did a great job at a fair price and it lasted for 30 years plus and if you called him back to add a socket , he would do it for a drink.

I think at 62 I am too old to accept the modern way.

Apart from the helpful people that have helped me get done what needed to be done , as a newcomer to a DIY forum, who politely asked for help , I have felt threatened, abused and insulted.

Which is exactly what I felt from the cowboy electricians that quoted me.

I will delete myself from this forum and that will be the end of it, but you really spoil it for the people that need help and the wonderful people that give help.

I dont think thats a very fair statement tbh,

 I'm not VAT registered, but I still prefer cash payments, or bank transfer, in fact, I have a 5% levy (minimum £25) on any other form of payment.

 

[Slowhand]

Deleted.

 

[Murdoch]

If they are sole traders they aren't avoiding VAT by asking for cash... it could be that they want to be sure that you pay up and didn't trust you to pay by BACs or cheque...... or worse they are avoiding income tax and NI.

The threshold for VAT is around £84K these days.

 

[Andy™]

Then I had several more willing to break the law and avoid VAT asking for cash payments.

im VAT registered and unless youre a regular customer then it will be cash only. VAT etc still gets paid and everything through the books. no laws get broken

 

[Slowhand]

I have one customer who has to pay me cash before I start the job.

It's the only way I'm sure to get paid.

No other way works with him.

 

[Sharpend]

I think this is all very sad. 

Vat, tax etc is all an irrelevance to the initial thread request and is in fact down to the individual and how they wish to manage their own affairs. 

It has to be said that had Bassi come here with an open and honest descriptive of his/their problem then we would have been in an informed position as to what help if any we were prepared to give. 

Reality for me is that had I have been local I would have been willing to help at a far more reasonable cost than has been indicated, providing intial verif action deemed rest of install was safe to proceed, for I believe that the youth of today need places to go, I'm sure we had them when we were younger? 

I digress, however trying to give advice on a DIY question for an individual's home is somewhat different to giving step by step advice on a commercial install, where there are tighter rules and regs to abide by. 

Most of the regulars on here are experienced professional tradesmen and give their time and advice freely, so to say we are unfriendly or unhelpful is somewhat unfair. 

As with any collective group of people there will always be differing opinions and views, but we must be mature and wise enough to distinguish between the advice given and what we will choose to follow or not. 

Im sure that Bassi had his heart in the right place in wanting to help, unfortunately he didn't give us the opportunity to support him in his quest by witholding the underpinning truth. 

Lessons to be learned all round. 

 

[binky]

Nobody "throws the 17th edition around to raise our prices"

 yes they bloody do! the number of times I've heard, 'your board isn't metal so fails and needs replacing' lately is rediculous

 

[ProDave]

 yes they bloody do! the number of times I've heard, 'your board isn't metal so fails and needs replacing' lately is rediculous

Okay, I will re phrase it. No REPUTABLE sparky (i.e most people on here) will "blame" the 17th edition for inflating the amount of work needed.  But I agree there are some cowboys who either genuinely don't understand the regs, or are deliberately using them as an excuse to do more work than is necessary.
 

 

[Blue Duck]

Most of the stuff I work on is so old that it complies retrospectively! C50's wired in pyro FTW!

I have no idea what is going on in this thread ,I would jump on the bandwagon at this late stage!

:slap

 

[Lurch]

The threshold for VAT is around £84K these days.

But you can go voluntarily VAT registered if your turnover is below this though. I did it years ago as most of my work is commercial so it makes me instantly 20% more expensive if I am not VAT registered.

 

[Sidewinder]

I went VAT registered at Zero turn over from the day we set the company up, as our target market is industrial/commercial, therefore it made sense.

 

[rapparee]

But you can go voluntarily VAT registered if your turnover is below this though. I did it years ago as most of my work is commercial so it makes me instantly 20% more expensive if I am not VAT registered.

I went VAT registered at Zero turn over from the day we set the company up, as our target market is industrial/commercial, therefore it made sense.

Absolutely. Whenever I'm getting men to quote me on anything i always ask for the price less the VAT. We are a factory btw.

 

[M107]

2. I had London Fire Brigade come and inspect and advise on all fire safety and I am following their recommendations.

:slap msl1:

 

[Sidewinder]

Absolutely. Whenever I'm getting men to quote me on anything i always ask for the price less the VAT. We are a factory btw.

My quotes never even indicate the value of VAT, it is just in the notes, that the quote excludes VAT, which will be applied at the rate prevailing at the date of transaction, which covers everyone, in case some muppet changes the VAT rate!