MCS is no longer required by Octopus.

[binky]

They did cancel all new PFI agreements

we're still paying for some of them, and they were an idea started by John Major in 1992. This is one of the great pitfalls of low tax policy, no one can borrow money cheaper than the government, so any form of using private money for services actually costs us more in higher interest rates, and of course, the money lenders want a profit margin.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...reds-of-millions-in-interest-to-private-firms

 

[Murdoch]

PFI = profit for investors.

I think you’ll find that Labour started far more PFI deals that the previous administration

 

[binky]

PFI = profit for investors.

I think you’ll find that Labour started far more PFI deals that the previous administration

Copied the idea from the Tories and used it a lot. There's a good reason they called him Tory Blair, but then the papers kept telling us this was how to manage spending. What you have to wonder is how inept some of the people signing some of the deals were, or did they get backhanders!

 

[UNG]

I think you’ll find that Labour started far more PFI deals that the previous administration

If I recall the numbers correctly there were 142 PFI's running in 2010 of which 3 were signed off by the Tories pre the 97 election the rest were down to Labour

 

[UNG]

we're still paying for some of them, and they were an idea started by John Major in 1992. This is one of the great pitfalls of low tax policy, no one can borrow money cheaper than the government, so any form of using private money for services actually costs us more in higher interest rates, and of course, the money lenders want a profit margin.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...reds-of-millions-in-interest-to-private-firms

We are still paying for a lot of them, my local hospitals PFI runs until 2033 about 10 years ago the terminal payment for the PFI was projected to be around £330m

 

[binky]

We are still paying for a lot of them, my local hospitals PFI runs until 2033 about 10 years ago the terminal payment for the PFI was projected to be around £330m

See article posted above.

 

[Murdoch]

Copied the idea from the Tories and used it a lot. There's a good reason they called him Tory Blair, but then the papers kept telling us this was how to manage spending. What you have to wonder is how inept some of the people signing some of the deals were, or did they get backhanders!

It was Gordon brown is especially liked PFI as it’s not on the National debt

The student loans were “off balance sheet” but I think the current government brought them on to the National debt IIRC

At the end of the day the next government will have no option but to raise taxes as closing loopholes won’t work with international business - George Osbornes rules on diverted tax has helped.

 

[binky]

You're kind of missing the point, it's all false economies, and very much a Tory idea. The LSE once described pfi as ' Alice in Wonderland economics'. Brown was very good at hiding things, like lots of backdoor taxation, again something started under Thatcher. Anything to keep headline tax rates ie what you see on your payslip down.

International business gets away with far too much, but only because they are allowed to. As we gave discussed before, tax avoidance is estimated to be somewhere between £30 and £100 billion, depending whose figures you look at. Might even be able to pay off some of the national debt if we collected that.

 

[Murdoch]

You're kind of missing the point, it's all false economies, and very much a Tory idea. The LSE once described pfi as ' Alice in Wonderland economics'. Brown was very good at hiding things, like lots of backdoor taxation, again something started under Thatcher. Anything to keep headline tax rates ie what you see on your payslip down.

BUT you can't deny it was Labour who used it the most AND it was the Conservatives that stopped all new PFI deals............

And all our taxes have gone up recently - which is what they needed to do. I'd happily pay more Council tax too .............

Raking over history of things that have happened doesn't really help - worrying about what the parties MAY DO IS a bigger worry.

Taxes will have to rise - I do wonder who will be the most honest?

 

[Bob Martin]

That is the problem - who will be the most honest? The fact is it is not just about raising taxes. We all know there are multiple cause which need to be addressed all of which call for more spending. The question is where the money comes from. We have a Fiat currency where government spending creates money and taxation is simply the means of preventing inflation when the economy is growing. Do the Tories or Labour admit this? No, fat chance when that would mean them conceding that all their previous statements that government spending comes out of people’s’ taxes were wrong. Labour simply go on about wealth taxes which is the wrong argument. They should be pointing out that it is fairness of taxes that is required. Professor Richard Murphy spells it out very clearly in his blog Funding The Future in which he is currently demonstrating at least thirty changes which could be made within the current system to raise tens of Billions in extra funding. Most that I have read so far (he is publishing them as a series on his site) are extremely fair and would make little impact on the top 10% who benefit most from the tax breaks in the system. Indeed the top 1% who creamed of so much during the pandemic wouldn’t even notice any difference.

Here is a link to the first in Richard’s series which I would recommend to everyone with an interest in fairer taxation.

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog...tions-would-raise-14-5-billion-in-tax-a-year/

 

[UNG]

See article posted above.

Not sure what point you are trying to make with an article from October 2022, my point was referring to the costs for one hospital that opened around 10 years ago

While the Guardians article mentions "The government decided to stop any future PFI deals in 2018, after the collapse of Carillion," it is not really clear whether the Tories actually created any new PFI's since 2010 or due to the at times extended procurement process they were a carry over from the previous Labour government add to that the comment in the footer "The Guardian has spent the past 13 years tirelessly investigating the shortcomings of the Tories in office – austerity, Brexit, partygate, cronyism, the Truss debacle and the individual failings of ministers who behave as if the rules don’t apply to them." I don't recall the same analysis of Labours time in power when they were selling off any assets that weren't bolted down to fund reckless spending.
One thing that is missing from that Guardian article and the others it links to is when it compares build costs to profit is the fact that the PFI hospitals usually employ all the non medical staff to run them and any ongoing maintenance needed

The PFI's were always going to be disaster and you didn't need to be an accountant to see it and while it is easy to blame the Tories for their idea Labour has generally escaped criticism for signing the majority of them

What we really need is some genuine politicians who can run a country and non of the current crop have the ability to do it with all the sound bites promising everything and delivering nothing but chaos

 

[Murdoch]

Here in Woking there is a debt issue.

So the Liberals are now in charge and they have publicly declared they are going to investigate thoroughly - fair enough BUT the Liberals all voted in favour of the plans AND the people organising the investigation are all people who voted in favour

I doubt they will be blaming themselves, so what’s the point

As far as I’m concerned ALL the councillors who voted in favour should step down

 

[binky]

Not sure what point you are trying to make with an article from October 2022, my point was referring to the costs for one hospital that opened around 10 years ago

The point I'm trying to make is that Tory policies sound good, but are actually false economies. Everybody would like to pay less tax, but if you then end spending more money direct from your pocket, or through state funding, then what's the point. I'll do some number crunching later.

It's interesting if you look at research into the happiest countries, such as Denmark, tax rates are higher at about 48%, but services are good, and people are more content.

I'm not a regular reader of the Guardian incidentally, but at least they offer an alternative to all the right wing papers. I actually prefer the FT if I have time to sit down and read, businesses like accurate information.

As for politicians, far too many come a legal background, and the last (only) mp with an engineering background was the Cornish liberal whose name I can't recall, Taylor I think. Could do with far more engineers, pragmatism is seriously lacking in parliament.

 

[Murdoch]

The point I'm trying to make is that Tory policies sound good, but are actually false economies. Everybody would like to pay less tax, but if you then end spending more money direct from your pocket, or through state funding, then what's the point. I'll do some number crunching later.

It's interesting if you look at research into the happiest countries, such as Denmark, tax rates are higher at about 48%, but services are good, and people are more content.

I'm not a regular reader of the Guardian incidentally, but at least they offer an alternative to all the right wing papers. I actually prefer the FT if I have time to sit down and read, businesses like accurate information.

As for politicians, far too many come a legal background, and the last (only) mp with an engineering background was the Cornish liberal whose name I can't recall, Taylor I think. Could do with far more engineers, pragmatism is seriously lacking in parliament.

What is lacking in Westminster is common sense and people who live in the real world

Too many career numpties who’ve never worked in the real world is most of the problem

 

[UNG]

The point I'm trying to make is that Tory policies sound good, but are actually false economies. Everybody would like to pay less tax, but if you then end spending more money direct from your pocket, or through state funding, then what's the point. I'll do some number crunching later.

For Tory insert any political party you want
It's the financial institutions and dealers that run the country if the policies sound like they will make a good profit they will support them if they won't it's trashed

It's interesting if you look at research into the happiest countries, such as Denmark, tax rates are higher at about 48%, but services are good, and people are more content.

I'm always suspicious of these minority sample conclusions

I'm not a regular reader of the Guardian incidentally, but at least they offer an alternative to all the right wing papers. I actually prefer the FT if I have time to sit down and read, businesses like accurate information.

All news media has a bias of one sort or another where ever you look around the world, I find you have to have look at a broad spectrum of reporting to hopefully find the right perspective

As for politicians, far too many come a legal background, and the last (only) mp with an engineering background was the Cornish liberal whose name I can't recall, Taylor I think. Could do with far more engineers, pragmatism is seriously lacking in parliament.

We need to bar career politicians who are elected without any real world experience

 

[binky]

For Tory insert any political party you want
It's the financial institutions and dealers that run the country if the policies sound like they will make a good profit they will support them if they won't it's trashed

Professional lobbyists should be banned from parliament, although I don't see that as workable in reality.

I'm always suspicious of these minority sample conclusions

There's been quite a few surveys that conclude the same thing.

All news media has a bias of one sort or another where ever you look around the world, I find you have to have look at a broad spectrum of reporting to hopefully find the right perspective

Definetly, it's also interesting to do some quick research yourself. I was trying to dig out numbers for deaths caused by potholes yesterday. Couldn't find what I wanted, but did find 50 cyclists are killed every year, a road death costs £2million, and we spend about £56 per motorist on roads every year, and we need to spend about £14 billion to repair the roads over a space of ten years.

We need to bar career politicians who are elected without any real world experience

Personally, I think you have to be slightly mad to want to be an MP these days. With all the online shit stirring haters at large, the rusk to yourself and your family is high. I'm also a believer that some firm if proportional representation would be better than the current voting system. Perhaps I might be actually able to vote for a candidate I actually agree with for once.

 

[Murdoch]

Professional lobbyists should be banned from parliament, although I don't see that as workable in reality.

Personally, I think you have to be slightly mad to want to be an MP these days.

The Unions are lobbyists - how would you deal with them / Labour?

I would pay MP's more AND have a minimum entry requirement of:

20 years work experience (being a political advisor doesn't count)
10 years permanent residency in the constituency they wish to represent

And then retrospectively apply this to the 650 in the HOC too.

 

[binky]

The Unions are lobbyists - how would you deal with them / Labour?

I would pay MP's more AND have a minimum entry requirement of:

20 years work experience (being a political advisor doesn't count)
10 years permanent residency in the constituency they wish to represent

And then retrospectively apply this to the 650 in the HOC too.

Labour us the political wing of the unions, who in turn are representatives of working people. No different to wealthy landowners and the Tories, who were formed to represent their interests. It would not be hard for the government/ civil service to put together their own independent research teams, rather than listening to lobbyists paid for say for example the oil industry.

Agree mps should be paid more, but not have any other jobs, unless it's to keep registration as a doctor or the like. Nor should they claim expenses for 'employing' numerous family members.

Residency should be essential, not so sure about 20 years work experience, there aren't many young mp's but shutting out youth doesn't seem democratic.

HOC, did you mean house of lords - still don't really understand that institution , but how the F does a Russian buy his way in????

 

[Murdoch]

HOC = House of Commons

The lords don’t have much power so they aren’ta problem

 

[stephanjs]

Some.confusion seems to exists concerning MCS.

At one point MCS was a good however 5he market has evolved and as Competent qualified people we should not have had to comply and do other certification when covered in our exsiting skillset.

Octopus have basically deregulated the process.
They will do your dno application.

One can even self certify although a warning to those who do diy check your competency as electricity can kill.

Personally I think this is a good change as the MCS system although it had its value is now outdated.

When the boss of the now privatised company deosnt even have solar well that says it all.

Moved to write but it is unlikely to change anything.

The main issue is that in the UK, anyone can do electrical work. There is/are building regulations that requires some types of work to be notified but it is rarely done. Only gas work is legislated in the BSE. (For those my age, you would remember Frank Chapple of the EETPU who blocked the government's attempt to have electrical work legislated.)

Those in power can cobble together schemes to make themselves a profit on the backs of hard working people. But until these money making loopholes are closed competent electricians will either have to cough up or give it a pass.

Let me illustrate. I have been a registered installer of ev charging points with OZEV(formerly OLEV) from day one. Part of the benefits of being registered with the government is that a customer only has to look on .GOV to find someone who is authorised to install and claim grants for installations. Most of my inquiries have been middle-people wanting me to register with them and pay them a fee to get contacts of enquiries to fit charging points. They got my details off the government website.

I have worked in Europe and spent some time in Asia and the Caribbean. There, one has to be licensed and registered to do any electrical work.

MCS is not and never has been needed. What has happened is that they has been a falling out of friends in the same lodge and as a result, Octopus has decided to go their own way. Good for them.

I was installing a battery storage system for a customer. I pointed out that a charging point installed on his garage was potentially dangerous. He dismissed this thinking that I was trying to make more money from him.

A 6mm 6242Y was connected to a 32A 60898 B type via a 10A light switch mounted on a back box on the inside of the garage. The only saving grace was that he had a phev, so not a big load.

Many diyers say that they can do as good a job if not better than a qualified electrician. But they miss the point. If they are as good or better, go and get registered. My son sometimes work with me. He has done so for about 10 years. I design the installation. Cable sizing, voltdrop, disconnection times, protective conductor temperature during faults, ect. I find the faults and decided on repairs. I test and certify. For him it can be just putting together a jigsaw puzzle following the instructions. (To be honest, he knows a bit more than the aforementioned from working with me). By the way, he is now 15 and doing his O'levels.

However, I have been called to many installs where faults have occurred. Some have caused major fires.

ONLY REGISTERED ELECTRICIANS SHOULD DO ELECTRICAL WORK. If gas leaks, it can result in a big explosion, demolishing houses and killing several people. No one hears about the, possibly MCS registered, company whose lack of testing ability results in the death of one person (there are many cases like Emma Shaw).