need rcd?

[M107]

I'll await a few more replies before posting what my reply was to the assessor & the assessors direction to my reply (& CC no posting what you told me....if you are here) .

I have to say the assessor I have has a wealth of knowledge & gives alternative methods I could have used to what I show on a yearly basis, I cant fault him in anyway.

 

[Voltimax]

Going back to unqualified people as members of scheme providers I fully agree with prof. What you must realize is that me and prof know quite a bit about this subject, since we have looked into it quite deeply. There a lot of you guys here that really don't know what goes on with the scheme providers. You really don't know what type of people are getting approved and it's quite shocking to say the least. Just so you know, it is ALL the scheme providers that are up to this. The minimum qualification allowable to get registered is the 2381/2382, now I ask you is that sufficient? Answer, no it isn't, not by a long chalk. This is all that is required to be an NICEIC domestic installer and to be registered with Elecsa. Napit claim that their requirements are much higher, well personally I say that's debatable. They claim you have to have 2382 AND 2391, however it is possible to register with just 2381 and then you're given a year to gain 2391. There is however another option. You can have no experience whatsoever but go to Napit towers and sit a 7 day course which is made up of 2382 and their own version of 2391, which I'll add is an OPEN book exam, but you must score 100%, however you are allowed 3 attempts to pass. There are 100 questions, if you take it the first time and score 80, you are then allowed to resit the 20 you got wrong and so on.

The BS 7671 regs exam (2381/2382) was originally only ever meant to be an update exam for already qualified electricians. It is now being perverted by the scheme providers. When I first inquired to be an NICEIC domestic installer just before 2005 I read out my list of qualifications to the person on the other end of the phone. I have 2360 parts one and 2, NVQ level 3 in electrical installation work, AM1, AM2 and a JIB electricians diploma. All of these I was told meant nothing since I gained them all before 1995. When I told them I had 2380 (16th edition circa 1999/2000) I was told "yes you can get in with that". I ask you, how can that be right?

Now before I get flamed, let me say this. I have no problem whatsoever with people that have carried out electrical work for many years but have no formal qualifications other than 2380/2381/2382. They have the experience and usually know exactly what they are doing. What I do object to however is when someone just fancies being an electrician and are able to take a regs exam, which lets face it, isn't difficult to pass if you have the ability to read and then starts working in peoples houses unsupervised. May I also point out that I don't blame those individuals, because it's the fault of the scheme providers and their greed.

As I've said, I really don't think many of you are wise to this, but trust me when I say there are a lot of people out there as I describe. I know I've done the digging.

 

[green-hornet]

I also think you are right, I think I have posted a similar post elsewhere.

I also think that there are many others on this forum with the same knowledge.

However I do know that as this is a forum for all, including 5 day wonders and diy'ers, I think that the "impartial" advise given is first rate.

I also think that anyone who asks a question regardless of their expertise deserves an honest informative and safe reply, to this end I respect any 5 day wonder who realises they need help and ask, it shows that they are regardless of how they got there, an electrician.

I picked up a screwdriver in 1976, and I still want to know what to do with it!

 

[davetheglitz]

Going back to unqualified people as members of scheme providers I fully agree with prof. What you must realize is that me and prof know quite a bit about this subject, since we have looked into it quite deeply. There a lot of you guys here that really don't know what goes on with the scheme providers. You really don't know what type of people are getting approved and it's quite shocking to say the least. Just so you know, it is ALL the scheme providers that are up to this. The minimum qualification allowable to get registered is the 2381/2382, now I ask you is that sufficient? Answer, no it isn't, not by a long chalk. This is all that is required to be an NICEIC domestic installer and to be registered with Elecsa. Napit claim that their requirements are much higher, well personally I say that's debatable. They claim you have to have 2382 AND 2391, however it is possible to register with just 2381 and then you're given a year to gain 2391. There is however another option. You can have no experience whatsoever but go to Napit towers and sit a 7 day course which is made up of 2382 and their own version of 2391, which I'll add is an OPEN book exam, but you must score 100%, however you are allowed 3 attempts to pass. There are 100 questions, if you take it the first time and score 80, you are then allowed to resit the 20 you got wrong and so on.The BS 7671 regs exam (2381/2382) was originally only ever meant to be an update exam for already qualified electricians. It is now being perverted by the scheme providers. When I first inquired to be an NICEIC domestic installer just before 2005 I read out my list of qualifications to the person on the other end of the phone. I have 2360 parts one and 2, NVQ level 3 in electrical installation work, AM1, AM2 and a JIB electricians diploma. All of these I was told meant nothing since I gained them all before 1995. When I told them I had 2380 (16th edition circa 1999/2000) I was told "yes you can get in with that". I ask you, how can that be right?

Now before I get flamed, let me say this. I have no problem whatsoever with people that have carried out electrical work for many years but have no formal qualifications other than 2380/2381/2382. They have the experience and usually know exactly what they are doing. What I do object to however is when someone just fancies being an electrician and are able to take a regs exam, which lets face it, isn't difficult to pass if you have the ability to read and then starts working in peoples houses unsupervised. May I also point out that I don't blame those individuals, because it's the fault of the scheme providers and their greed.

As I've said, I really don't think many of you are wise to this, but trust me when I say there are a lot of people out there as I describe. I know I've done the digging.

There is a tendency for electricians to believe that their way is the only way in to the profession and damn everybody else. Supposedly I'm a 5 day wonder (too mean to do 5 day course - but night school for 2391 and college allowed me to take 2381 while unemployed) however I did an electrical engineering apprenticeship at the Dockyard and got ONC/HNC/Degree in electrical engineering and 20 years in test system design. I love being an electrician - but it is a small subset of electrical engineering - and certainly in this area with collapsing engineering a lot of your 5 day wonders are a lot more capable than many time served electricians like to admit.

I think NAPIT have got it right. More than 2381 - which anyone with good referencing skills can pass - but a chance to learn, commit and get qualified with a yearly inspection to check all is well. So what if it's open book - I'm not adverse to looking in the book when I need to! Better than guessing!

I'm more disturbed by electrical firms employing people with no qualifications whatsoever - but the supervisor signing off their work without even seeing the job. It happens more than we would like to admit. These unsupervised so called electricians have the credibility of years on the job - but essentially no comprehension or training in what it's all about!

Just a different side of the coin!

 

[Manator]

Very good answer, and would highlight the problems with large or moderatly sized companies who's main workforce are untrained.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

There is a tendency for electricians to believe that their way is the only way in to the profession and damn everybody else. Supposedly I'm a 5 day wonder (too mean to do 5 day course - but night school for 2391 and college allowed me to take 2381 while unemployed) however I did an electrical engineering apprenticeship at the Dockyard and got ONC/HNC/Degree in electrical engineering and 20 years in test system design. I love being an electrician - but it is a small subset of electrical engineering - and certainly in this area with collapsing engineering a lot of your 5 day wonders are a lot more capable than many time served electricians like to admit.I think NAPIT have got it right. More than 2381 - which anyone with good referencing skills can pass - but a chance to learn, commit and get qualified with a yearly inspection to check all is well. So what if it's open book - I'm not adverse to looking in the book when I need to! Better than guessing!

I'm more disturbed by electrical firms employing people with no qualifications whatsoever - but the supervisor signing off their work without even seeing the job. It happens more than we would like to admit. These unsupervised so called electricians have the credibility of years on the job - but essentially no comprehension or training in what it's all about!

Just a different side of the coin!

Concurrences with Mr the Glizt.................

he do stick in these gems from time to time!

:Applaud :x

PS.

Hows the band doing?

 

[Lee321]

gotta go with post #40 m107

 

[ianmacd]

4" stud fitted to wall + cellotex (kingspan competetor

Kingspan's superior more like. Celotex is much better and they have loads mor einfo on their site too.

 

[Risteard]

You have an installation with meb's but no rcd's at cu on any circuit, you now put a new shower circuit in to a bathroom & rcd the circuit as is required, do you then also;

• have to install supplimentary bonding in bathroom.
  
• rcd any other circuits in the bathroom.
  

Every circuit in the bathroom must be RCD protected. If you did not RCD protect every circuit then supplementary bonding could not be omitted.

 

[Risteard]

their own version of 2391, which I'll add is an OPEN book exam, but you must score 100%, however you are allowed 3 attempts to pass. There are 100 questions, if you take it the first time and score 80, you are then allowed to resit the 20 you got wrong and so on.

Can you confirm what I have heard that "NA2391" (cheeky name for the qualification!) is a multiple choice exam?

 

[ianmacd]

Every circuit in the bathroom must be RCD protected. If you did not RCD protect every circuit then supplementary bonding could not be omitted.

Very true if you had modified the affected circuits but if you had just installed to 17th a new shower then can you really be expected to rip off tiled on bath panels to ensure the pipes are properly cross bonded?

I think it would be a suggestion on the cert just like no RCD on other circuits but as long as the one you installed is up to regs then we can not force people to bring installations up to date.

 

[Risteard]

If there is no supplementary bonding then you could not install the shower without RCD protection on every circuit in the bathroom because it is posing an immediate potential for danger.

And anyway, not only would the installation not comply with the 17th Edition - it wouldn't comply with the 16th Edition either. You can't mix and match standards.

 

[Lee321]

If there is no supplementary bonding then you could not install the shower without RCD protection on every circuit in the bathroom because it is posing an immediate potential for danger.And anyway, not only would the installation not comply with the 17th Edition - it wouldn't comply with the 16th Edition either. You can't mix and match standards.

if there was bonding you still could not install the shower without rcd unless your superman and can spin time back or hitch a ride with michael j fox ROTFWL

 

[ianmacd]

If there is no supplementary bonding then you could not install the shower without RCD protection on every circuit in the bathroom because it is posing an immediate potential for danger.And anyway, not only would the installation not comply with the 17th Edition - it wouldn't comply with the 16th Edition either. You can't mix and match standards.

The existing work is not yours. You would not be mixing and matching your work. All our work should be to the 17th now (unless you want to prove your way is at least as safe in a court.....good luck with that). How would it not be safe with an RCD with or without sup bonding?

 

[professional]

The existing work is not yours. You would not be mixing and matching your work. All our work should be to the 17th now (unless you want to prove your way is at least as safe in a court.....good luck with that). How would it not be safe with an RCD with or without sup bonding?

The regs are not based on common sense - that said, by introducing a NEW circuit into an existing high risk area of installation, account must be taken of any potential increase in risk.

The introduction of a shower into the equation means that the risk of importing a potential from outside the area is greater - minor alterations to existing circuits carry a far smaller risk.

 

[Badger]

The regs are not based on common sense - that said, by introducing a NEW circuit into an existing high risk area of installation, account must be taken of any potential increase in risk. The introduction of a shower into the equation means that the risk of importing a potential from outside the area is greater - minor alterations to existing circuits carry a far smaller risk.

i dont see how as long as the pipework is earthed it is any more dangerous as was before you did the alterations when bonding wasnt installed ?:|

 

[M107]

Every circuit in the bathroom must be RCD protected. If you did not RCD protect every circuit then supplementary bonding could not be omitted.

Bang on.

Even though you'd have rcd your new circuit, the other circuits in the bathroom must also comply. So it's adding the supplimentary bonds or rcd'ing the circuits that supply the bathroom.

Thats what the man said.

My answer was & I suspect many others probably also thought

"so long as my circuit complies & I've not touched any other circuits in the bathroom/property no need to bring upto current spec"

 

[ianmacd]

Bang on.Even though you'd have rcd your new circuit, the other circuits in the bathroom must also comply. So it's adding the supplimentary bonds or rcd'ing the circuits that supply the bathroom.

Thats what the man said.

My answer was & I suspect many others probably also thought

"so long as my circuit complies & I've not touched any other circuits in the bathroom/property no need to bring upto current spec"

I would disagree and suggest thats your assessors view. Did he back it up with a relevent reg? We are not the electric police and if we don't fit the new shower with the rcd then someone will without it for 50 quid.

 

[Lee321]

you might aswell check evrything else complies then like rcd for sockets and <50mm

its beyond the task

 

[Voltimax]

Can you confirm what I have heard that "NA2391" (cheeky name for the qualification!) is a multiple choice exam?

Yes I can confirm this.