Neutral at light switch?

[europa]

Well, i think i've managed to figure out the answer to my deillema. Whilst most of my automation modules will be dimmers (which work with two-way wiring), some of my automation modules will be relays, i.e.:
http://www.vesternet.com/resources/application-notes/apnt-17#.V_pvnCT4JaY

So, if i don't have neutral at the switch, i can forget retrofitting the modules!

So, if i need neutral at the switch for some of my switches (as i clearly do), surely it makes sense to just have neutral at all switches. Right? 

 

[Lurch]

So, if i need neutral at the switch for some of my switches (as i clearly do), surely it makes sense to just have neutral at all switches. Right?

Yep.

But you do not need to install the module in the switch though, unless you really want to. It can go anywhere that there is a L, N & SL, so behind a downlight or above a ceiling rose would be fine, as long as it was appropriately enclosed.

 

[europa]

Yep.

But you do not need to install the module in the switch though, unless you really want to. It can go anywhere that there is a L, N & SL, so behind a downlight or above a ceiling rose would be fine, as long as it was appropriately enclosed.

Indeed, however, i will have dual relays for bathrooms, half of which operates the light and the other half the extractor fan. Still need to figure out how exactly that works, but, ultimately, as per my other thread, i'm trying to have a set up that allows my automation guy to retrofit the modules. As mentioned, my contractor wants about 3.5k+vat for the automation wiring [= rip off!]. My automation man will do the retrofits for just 400+vat, i.e. one day's work. 

 

[Blue Duck]

Thanks Lurchio  ...I'd prefer those to the circular JBs  .  Obviously they fit through  downlighter holes  so looking useful. 

Anything to make the job easier these days. 

Missed that previously, sorry. it's a hager/Ashley j501 very useful IMO. 

There is a slightly newer one now with rounder edges, very easy to stuff into the void!

Also use wago boxes but you need to make bigger holes.

 

[Evans Electric]

£3.5K     or as I write it ....£ 3500.00     Jeeez!!!      Whatever you do , don't ask your main contractor to move a socket 6 inches to the left  ....about £800.00 by the sound of it . 

Theres another thread on here entitled  " Am I being ripped off?"       That applies to you also I'm thinking .  

Missed that previously, sorry. it's a hager/Ashley j501 very useful IMO. 

There is a slightly newer one now with rounder edges, very easy to stuff into the void!

Also use wago boxes but you need to make bigger holes.

Thanks Quackers  .

 

[europa]

£3.5K     or as I write it ....£ 3500.00     Jeeez!!!      Whatever you do , don't ask your main contractor to move a socket 6 inches to the left  ....about £800.00 by the sound of it . 

Theres another thread on here entitled  " Am I being ripped off?"       That applies to you also I'm thinking .

Yep, that was also me in fact. Funny thing is: they seem surprised i think it's too much! Keep telling me: "you've got a good price...we're not making any profit". WTGrape.

If i could, i would tell them which window to jump out of (as it's not the first time they've over priced). But i'm too far down the line and i'm going from one crisis to the next with them. The whole process has been a nightmare from the start. Now i just have to crawl to the finish line, minimising the financial damage as much as poss.

 

[Evans Electric]

We are returning to a job next week where the client has given the main contractor AND the electrical firm the big heave-ho . 

They built a kitchen on last year , excellent job , just the building no finishing  , but apparently the money they wanted for plastering , fit a kitchen , electrics etc  was extortionate  , client wouldn't say how much .

We ran all the feeds through the house to the kitchen  last year and we go there next week to start finishing it  plus other stuff. 

The garden is around 25 sq. miles !!!  I'll get some pics  

 

[rapparee]

We are returning to a job next week where the client has given the main contractor AND the electrical firm the big heave-ho . 

They built a kitchen on last year , excellent job , just the building no finishing  , but apparently the money they wanted for plastering , fit a kitchen , electrics etc  was extortionate  , client wouldn't say how much .

We ran all the feeds through the house to the kitchen  last year and we go there next week to start finishing it  plus other stuff. 

The garden is around 25 sq. miles !!!  I'll get some pics  

The client won't say because you are probably like half price to the original and he doesn't want you thinking you've underpriced.

 

[steptoe]

spider lighting is also an option your contractor may be using,

sometimes with a Neutral at the switch, sometimes not,

sometimes with a permanent live at the light, sometimes not

there are so many configurations as to how to wire lighting there is NO definitive right or wrong way to do it

 

[binky]

retrofit automation is probably Fibaro ssytem  -wireless modules. Can also be fitted after this bunch if sharks have ******** off becuase it is retro-fit!!! 'She' is putting large mark-ups on all 'extras' - seen this done so many times, a £50 job becomes £300. Many contractors regard 'extras' as a chance to rip people off

 

[europa]

retrofit automation is probably Fibaro ssytem  -wireless modules. Can also be fitted after this bunch if sharks have ******** off becuase it is retro-fit!!! 'She' is putting large mark-ups on all 'extras' - seen this done so many times, a £50 job becomes £300. Many contractors regard 'extras' as a chance to rip people off

Yep, it's Fibaro alright. My supplier told me that, because it's so easy, some of their sparks even do it for free if they're doing all the electrics anyway! But they're based in Huddersfield, so not really viable option. But they have said their programmer can do it for me as part of the programming. Will add a day's work, which is only 400+vat. So my contractor's price is out by a factor of 10!

My contractor is not hiding the fact they've under priced. Keeps saying they haven't budgeted for stuff! Obviously that's not my fault - they probably did it deliberately to win the contract. But now they are hitting me on every single extra. And even disputing some of the work (like external insulation) that is in the spec!

If i could do this all again, i would have every single thing in the spec before tender. But it's not that easy and i've never done a renovation before, so i'm learning as i go. 

 

[Evans Electric]

The client won't say because you are probably like half price to the original and he doesn't want you thinking you've underpriced.

Well we've heard it all before 1000 times TBH  .   Whatever it was is of no consequence to us , we put in a price  that we think the job is worth  and thats it.    

 

[europa]

Guys

Do me a favour please. Give me a couple of reasons why an electrician might prefer to wire neutral at the switch (as opposed to only in ceiling)? My idiot contractor is now insisting neutral at switch is just for automation (so she can try to rip me off again).

 

[rapparee]

Guys

Do me a favour please. Give me a couple of reasons why an electrician might prefer to wire neutral at the switch (as opposed to only in ceiling)? My idiot contractor is now insisting neutral at switch is just for automation (so she can try to rip me off again).

Tell her it is frig all to do with her. She isn't a spark. Tell her you are having the house rewired and that's the way you want it, you don't have to justify anything.

Don't be soft with her. Tell her she has had enough money out of you and it is covered in the £550 incidentals

 

[Murdoch]

Guys

Do me a favour please. Give me a couple of reasons why an electrician might prefer to wire neutral at the switch (as opposed to only in ceiling)? My idiot contractor is now insisting neutral at switch is just for automation (so she can try to rip me off again).

Just insist on a meeting with the spark and her, and if she doesn't agree suggest you won't be paying anymore until the meeting happens.

 

[europa]

Tell her it is frig all to do with her. She isn't a spark. Tell her you are having the house rewired and that's the way you want it, you don't have to justify anything.

Don't be soft with her. Tell her she has had enough money out of you and it is covered in the £550 incidentals

That's exactly what i told her. If i hadnt already paid far more than the work theyve done, they'd be gone.

 

[Sharpend]

I always wire neutral to switch, as there are too many modern light fittings that don't allow for more than two cables to be connected safely without additional enclosure, downlights being one in particular. If so I'd definitely wire to switch otherwise there would be greater material and time expense as I'd need a separate junction box at each light in most cases which is all extra time/work for me. Personally I'd sooner have most of the work to do a switch height rather than above head height as neck doesn't like being crooked upwards for too long! 

 

[Andy™]

Guys

Do me a favour please. Give me a couple of reasons why an electrician might prefer to wire neutral at the switch (as opposed to only in ceiling)? My idiot contractor is now insisting neutral at switch is just for automation (so she can try to rip me off again).

convenience is the main reason for me. but it depends entirely on the installation. i will often use a mix of loop at ceiling and switch within the same property, which ever is more convenient. if you asked me for loop at ceiling or loop at switch for all then i would do it, however it might cost a bit more if more wiring / work is involved

builder sounds like an idiot tbh. there is no reason why you shouldnt be able to ask the sparky (indirectly or directly) for any specific requirements. generally, you would be allowed on site (they cant stop you anyway) and speak directly to the person with or without the builder being present.

even at this stage (from what ive read anyway), you could still get someone else in to the the data wiring and tell the builder that they / their sparky are only to the mains wiring and nothing else

and if it was my property and they told me i cant go in whilst they are there then they would be getting told to leave

 

[rapparee]

That's exactly what i told her. If i hadnt already paid far more than the work theyve done, they'd be gone.

If you had of said the rest that isn't in bold, you would have got your way. Lol.

Well at least you have learnt a lesson not to pay out too soon. You can't even tell them to leave because they have already been paid, you have to politely ask them to stay and do the job, they have you by the short and curlies i'm afraid.

Ask her what the incidentals are for. Tell her you will pay the extra if she knocks the incidentals off.

 

[europa]

convenience is the main reason for me. but it depends entirely on the installation. i will often use a mix of loop at ceiling and switch within the same property, which ever is more convenient. if you asked me for loop at ceiling or loop at switch for all then i would do it, however it might cost a bit more if more wiring / work is involved

builder sounds like an idiot tbh. there is no reason why you shouldnt be able to ask the sparky (indirectly or directly) for any specific requirements. generally, you would be allowed on site (they cant stop you anyway) and speak directly to the person with or without the builder being present.

even at this stage (from what ive read anyway), you could still get someone else in to the the data wiring and tell the builder that they / their sparky are only to the mains wiring and nothing else

and if it was my property and they told me i cant go in whilst they are there then they would be getting told to leave

That is what i think it may come to. Apart from the 550 for incidentals, they also want to charge me 1k extra for a few additional sockets and light fittings - i have to supply lights, switches etc. myself anyway. All i'm asking them for is neutral at switch and 45mm back boxes.

I'm really starting to regret paying on demand. I've already transferred over half the total contract price and they haven't even finished the loft yet.