No bonding on new build

Talk Electrician Forum

Help Support Talk Electrician Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
just looked at the tags at the bottom........platic.....whats that? come on Admin!

 
pasted from above"I don't think you understand the reason for bonding metal pipes. Imagine a cable comes into contact with a pipe under the floor just the phase conductor. Now all the metal pipework and possibly kitchen sink and even metal bath will now be a 240 volt potential"

1.What if a cable passed through a window reveal to an outside light, but the window was metal and the live conductor made contact. The window would be live, but who bonds windows

14th or was it 15th

2.What if cable snags on the metal Tbar in a suspended ceiling the whole grid would be live, but are we supposed to bong the grid. No.

YES

Just throwing a spanner in the works;\
me in red

 
411.3.1.2

Main protective bonding conductors are required to be connected the following metallic parts to the main earthing terminal, where they are extraneous conductive parts. ie liable to introduce earth potential into the building.

metal water installation pipes

metal gas installation pipes

other installation pipes (including oil and gas supply pipes) and ducting

metal central heating and air conditioning systems

exposed metallic structural parts of the building

lightning protection systems(where required by BS EN 62305)

Under this regulation there is no requirement to main bond the water supply pipe or even the gas supply pipe.

However.

coffee

It would be reasonable to assume, that if all cables are hidden beneath floorboards , stud walls and in attics then some plumber will undoubtably use your cables as a support for his heating or water pipes.

Given a reasonable suspicion, and a risk assessment (be it overly cautious), I would always main bond from gas and water to MET.

That said.

coffee

There is no requirement to main bond an incoming service where the incoming service pipe and the pipework within the building are both plastic.

Where there is a plastic incomming service and a metal installation within the premises, main bonding is recommended unless it has been confirmed that any metal pipework within the building is not introducing earth potential.

So, we must conclude from that, that there is a case for misinterpretation of the regulations, but the regulations speak for themselves.

Me personally I still bond water and gas, and I have only had two properties where it was not required( being all plastic).

Posters who have said it is not required are correct

Posters who have said they will bond it anyway are correct(I still do it).

So everyone is happy.

coffee ;)

 
1.What if a cable passed through a window reveal to an outside light, but the window was metal and the live conductor made contact. The window would be live, but who bonds windows2.What if cable snags on the metal Tbar in a suspended ceiling the whole grid would be live, but are we supposed to bong the grid. No.
Which is the room people are most likely to be at rick from electrocution in? I'll give you a clue, it requires ALL circuits to be RCD protected. Now How will either of your examples really affect anyone in that room? But, line potential pipework/taps/basin/bath, is that more of a risk in that room?

 
Which is the room people are most likely to be at rick from electrocution in? I'll give you a clue, it requires ALL circuits to be RCD protected. Now How will either of your examples really affect anyone in that room? But, line potential pipework/taps/basin/bath, is that more of a risk in that room?
WOT???? :z

 
Try looking at what extraneous -conductive part means. A conductive part liable to introduce potential, Generally earth potential and not forming part forming part of the electrical installation. Now to me this reads generally it will be a ov but it could introduce a potential so when that cable comes into contact with it it will then induce a potential 240 volts so it needs bonding.
Then try actually re-reading the definition...

Liable to INTRODUCE a potentail...

1/

The additional guidance in the OSG clearly points this to refers to EARTH POTENTIAL (thats page 27.. the last two lines!).

2/

INTRODUCE... that means under "normal" circumstances the metal work will introduce the potential... NOT a potential could be passed along it under fault conditions!

If we start being silly saying 'but if I put 230v on it' it will introduce 230v then that same rule would apply to every single piece of metal in the building!

In your scenario it is the CABLE that is introducing the 230v NOT the pipework!

e.g.

What happens if the homeowner is a hornby railway or scalextric fan...

but the supply to his transformer is a bit frayed..

and the live comes into contact with the metal parts of the track.....

And little Johnny puts his hand across the track, whilst barefoot on the conservatory floor??????

better bond the bloomin railway & scalextric as well!!!

IF the cables have been installed in accordance with BS7671.. the probability of them comming into contact with pipework is negligible!

(are we not assuming Ins Res tests were carried out to verify NO damaged insulation?? etc.. etc...)

Good workmanship,

external influences come to mind?

:) ;)

 
Is it just me or are some of these sample scenarios to support arguments getting a bit far fetched these days?

 
Is it just me or are some of these sample scenarios to support arguments getting a bit far fetched these days?
well when people get away from the basic guidance given in BS7671 & the On-Site-Guide..

and have crazy ideas that a peice of metal Not permanently connected to the electrical installation OR to earth can some how INTRODUCE any potential...

Is it surprising that things get silly?

:|

The whole context of this thread..

is A NEW BUILD with plastic incoming water...

 
I,ve been following this thread with interest. My understanding of the bonding requirements for extraneous conductive parts, is, any part that is liable to introduce a potential, which as someone correctly stated earlier, would be oV, requires bonding to the MET.

The sole reason for this bonding as far as I am aware is to raise the potential of the extraneous part to that of the fault, to lessen the PD between the fault and the extraneous parts, thus lessening the shock.

Now if the incoming services are plastic, we have no potential introduced, so no bonding required.

Main Equipotential Bonding is what it says, it equals out potential in the event of contact with both it, and a fault. It has nothing to do with phase wires touching the pipework, this is a completely different argument and is not the reason for main bonding.

 
Think it's best to say that opinions will always differ on this subject, personally I would always bond "Just in case", factor the price into whatever the job entails and explain reasons to the client. Sorted.

 
Think it's best to say that opinions will always differ on this subject, personally I would always bond "Just in case", factor the price into whatever the job entails and explain reasons to the client. Sorted.
Unfortunately this "just bond it anyway" attitude can on certain occasions be more hazardous than not bonding..... :(

i.e.

a piece of metal with little or no continuity back to earth, will not complete a path for an electric shock.

Higher resistance = less current. Whereas lower resistance path = higher current flow, thus increasing the amount of the shock current.

It may help to consider TWO distinctly different fault scenarios:-

a) A faulty item of equipment where a line, (phase), conductor touches an external metal part, (e.g. say a dodgy washing machine).

B) A person using a damaged extension lead or doing a bit of DIY, failing to do any safe isolation and they touch an exposed line, (Phase), conductor.

In situation (a) we need a nice very low resistance path to increase the speed that the circuit breaker operates. Because during that time frame after the fault but before the circuit breaker operates all metal work connected to that same earth system with rise toward supply potential (230v).

In situation (B) we need a higher resistance to reduce the current flow! Thats one of the reasons why we use safety shoes insulated to 1000v and Non-metal stepladders and insulated screwdrivers etc.. etc..

This is a similar principal to the 230v shaver socket... Isolating transformer = NO return path for a fault current.

It is the bits of metal that are joined to the electrical installation, (Exposed conductive parts)

and the bits of metal making a reasonable contact with earth potential, (Extraneous conductive parts), that need the bonding.

Other bits of metal that just happen to be at a property but not introducing an earth potential will not be part of any fault circuit...

(unless you happen to choose to go and join them, bond, onto the installation anyway)

From what I recall the value of 22,000ohm (22kohm), between metal part and electrical earth, is level above which it is considered that the free-standing metal work doesn't need any bonding.

Less than 22k then generally considered best to bond.

As a certain member often says, it is the limited knowledge of just doing something cuz I always do it, without understanding why you do something that can be more hazardous.

IMHO earthing is one of those areas where many electricians still don't fully understand why they are doing something. Yet EVERY electrician has a responsibility to asses each installation they work on to asses that the earthing and bonding are appropriate, (reg 131.8), for the protective measures applied.

Remember it is those last few qualifying words.. "For the protective measures applied" that is pivotal in that reg.

e.g. there were difference of protective measure's between 16th & 17th domestic installations.

AND

Domestic & Commercial, also have their own set of differences for types of protection required, (a-la Ordinary persons, Skilled etc.. etc..).

The bottom Line:

There is no 'ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL, STANDARD RULE' for bonding every installation in an automatic fail-safe manner.

The electrician needs to satisfy him/her self that they can sign the certificate for their work with a clear conscience.

coffeecoffeecoffee

 
Top