no cpcs

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NWDS

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Afternoon all, just a quick question ( not ), I have just visited a property my sister in law ( in Oz ) intends to rent out, just had a look ( no testing ) at the skts and lighting circuits.Both upstairs & down stairs lighting have no cpcs, now with this being a property that is intended for rental I want to rewire the lights but budget will have a bearing, some of the sw are brass (no cpc ) with timber back boxes and some fittings are class 1, my thoughts at first was to fit class 2 and signage at the CU then fit RCD protection as well, any thoughts you have will be great.

regards Iain

 

DonkeyDong

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Sounds fine - Its acceptable to have lights with no CPC (not ideal) - as long as they are Class II accessories and lights (needs documenting/labellling at the CU as you've stated)

D.

ps - Ready to be shot down ;)

 

Evans Electric

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Also ready to be shot down.

If cost is a major factor and remembering that the Regs. are not retrospective, surely all insulated fittings would be OK. Hate to sound pedantic but I do'nt think the wooden boxes are acceptable. They deem them to be combustible although I never heard of it happening. I assume the cable is PVC !

Now to the trench to await the flack

Deke

 

Apache

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If you fit only plastic switches and lampholders then strictly is there any need for RCD? You've only swapped like for like?

I appreciate RCD makes it safer

 

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Now to the trench to await the flack

Deke
whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

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PLOP!

nope I missed...

i shall have to throw harder.

deke just wave your right hand a bit higher up .. give us chance to see which end of the trench you are at?

Is DonkeyDong over there as well???

come on guys..

give us a chance..

how we supposed to throw the flak if we cant see where you are hiding??

I'm just going to get one of them outside floodlights Dan was after...

then i am going to see if Steptoes about.. (he's good at chucking flak)..

then

I'll be

back!! ]:) ] :) ]:) ] :)

mind you me aim may still not be too good...Guiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness Drink

 

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IMO

The key to these sort of problems is "RISK ASSESSMENT"?

Objective:-

You have to ensure you minimise the risk of shock/fire to people/property/livestock when you have completed your circuit alterations.

There are a whole bunch of various factors to consider and/or procedures to undertake when deciding the best course of action.

GENERAL

BS7671 does NOT say you have to put in a CPC.

General guidance recommends where possible to install a CPC.

If no CPC possible provide a 30ma RCD for added protection.

An RCD must NOT be the only means of protection against electric shock. (i.e. still fused or RCBO).

The insulation resistance must be verified as satisfactory.

Appropriate label MUST be fitted if no CPC.

The non compliance MUST be noted on the certificate.

The customer should be advised in writing of any risks remaining on the circuit.

THE ACTUAL INSTALLATION

How many rooms are there? & how many light fittings/switches?

Is the existing cable ALL PVC?

Have the existing switch drops got conduit/channel allowing wires to be pulled in?

If you are replacing ALL fittings and switches, and the switch drop will pull in easily the Upstairs lights wouldn't be a very big job to rewire most of the floor if loft access available.

Are they two separate light circuits? possible borrowed/shared neutral? If RCD best to have lights on separate RCD's to avoid total darkness if trips? Borrowed neutral will c0ck-up two RCD operation!

Wooden back-boxes; greater risk of a fixing screw cutting a cable if faceplate not properly aligned. Wooden back box use wood screws, have seen screw cut live wire in a hall/landing switch box.. few more wires & less space.. miss aligned screw cut live.. customer complained of shock from screw protruding through plastic switch!?

Again if going to replace back box.. possibly more beneficial over all to replace cable.

If property empty.. quite feasible to do all lights in reasonable short time.. (e.g. easier than socket circuits)

If re-wire. still got to put lights onto two separate RCD's in anyway.

There may be more.. but thats all I can think of at the moment...

basically you need to weigh up each of the Pro's & Con's and reassess the genuine best course of action.

NWDS.. This is where you get yourself a beer and sit down & think it all over again? Guiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness Drink

 

steptoe

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Afternoon all, just a quick question ( not ), I have just visited a property my sister in law ( in Oz ) intends to rent out, just had a look ( no testing ) at the skts and lighting circuits.Both upstairs & down stairs lighting have no cpcs, now with this being a property that is intended for rental I want to rewire the lights but budget will have a bearing, some of the sw are brass (no cpc ) with timber back boxes and some fittings are class 1, my thoughts at first was to fit class 2 and signage at the CU then fit RCD protection as well, any thoughts you have will be great.regards Iain
where is this property? UK or OZ.?

as for no CPC thats simply a "does not comply" with current regs.

we've had the wooden enclosure argument, perfectly acceptable, NO combustion risk under NORMAL circumstances.

RCD is non compliance as well.

to be totally pedantic you could actually change every fitting in the dwelling to plastic and even if the sockets didnt have an earth simply issue a notice that only double insulated equipment was permitted to be used within the premises and your ass would be covered.

Im assuming in all this that the property is UK.

OZ rules are MAJOR different, and put more of an onus on the user/consumer.

 

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where is this property? UK or OZ.?as for no CPC thats simply a "does not comply" with current regs.

we've had the wooden enclosure argument, perfectly acceptable, NO combustion risk under NORMAL circumstances.

RCD is non compliance as well.

to be totally pedantic you could actually change every fitting in the dwelling to plastic and even if the sockets didnt have an earth simply issue a notice that only double insulated equipment was permitted to be used within the premises and your ass would be covered.

Im assuming in all this that the property is UK.

OZ rules are MAJOR different, and put more of an onus on the user/consumer.
Argument???

was that... "debate"... you meant to type there Steps!? :) ; \ :^O ;)

didn't think we argued on here:x

you snivelling, winging earth rod scrap man!

TRAILERS RULE KO!!!

stuff your ruddy horse & fridge & yard!!!

:^O :^O:^O:^O:^O:^O:^O:^O:^O:^O:^O

{once again another gem of wisdom there m8,

your knowledge of outside UK is indeed a bonus to this forum.....

stop some of us just lookin up our own backside all the time!!!!}

 

steptoe

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Argument???was that... "debate"... you meant to type there Steps!? :) ; \ :^O ;)

didn't think we argued on here:x

you snivelling, winging earth rod scrap man!

TRAILERS RULE KO!!!

stuff your ruddy horse & fridge & yard!!!

:^O :^O:^O:^O:^O:^O:^O:^O:^O:^O:^O

{once again another gem of wisdom there m8,

your knowledge of outside UK is indeed a bonus to this forum.....

stop some of us just lookin up our own backside all the time!!!!}
how the **** am I supposed to reply to this.?!?!?!?

:_| ]:) :_| ]:) :_| ]:) :eek: :^O

 

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steptoe

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Indeed so Binky!this is the link if anyone doesn't know the web address...

http://www.niceic.org.uk/other-downloads/nroot/niceic/other-downloads/BPG1_aug07.pdf

Don't think there is any specific difference on this topic between 16th & 17th?
still dont make it a fail tho, only a does not comply, can anyone remember previous regs?

and remember, BS7671 is only a guide.!

an earth is NOT a legal requirement on any installation.!

just a RECOMMENDATION, for certain types of installation.

a more accurate description of the install is required,

ie, IT requires NO earth whatsoever. tho I am assuming its a TNCS or TNS or TT we are talking about.

 

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still dont make it a fail tho, only a does not comply, can anyone remember previous regs? and remember, BS7671 is only a guide.!

an earth is NOT a legal requirement on any installation.!

just a RECOMMENDATION, for certain types of installation.

a more accurate description of the install is required,

ie, IT requires NO earth whatsoever. tho I am assuming its a TNCS or TNS or TT we are talking about.
That in a nutshell is what the guide basically says....

if possible stick a CPC in.. but if not..

label accordingly & advise customer!

 

NWDS

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Right then fellas, the house is a 3 bed semi 80amp supply tns and is in the UK, my main point/concern is how she stands with tennants ( brain dead ) who ignore the signage and alter circuits ( change fittings to pretty ones class 1 ), the house is empty at the moment and all the sw drops are in conduit ( not earthed ), I would like to go in and put a new CU ( old one wylex rewirable 6 wy )and rewire both lighting circuits but as stated I think monies will be an issue.

All the replys and info is greatly appreciated and thanks

regards Iain

Guiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness Drink

 

binky

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Money is always an issue with landlords, but this does not absolve them of their responsibilites. She needs to talk to tennants (and put in writing) and make clear class II only, and not to mess with accessories without prior consent. However, changing CU will certainly help matters should someone inadvertantly get a shock, and as house is empty change pretty fitings back to plastic - suggest legrand with the plastic screw covers.

 

steptoe

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yep, sounds like a good compromise, change CU for RCD and make it a part of tenancy agreement that electrical fittings are not permitted to be changed without prior permission(which will of course be denied).

tho there is some where in EAWR that states money is not an issue when it comes to safety, very right too.

 

NWDS

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Evening, thanks for the reply they have all been taken onboard but its not my money and I cannt make them spend theirs I have made them aware and I may have to walk away from it.

regards again iain

 

steptoe

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yep, sounds like a good compromise, change CU for RCD and make it a part of tenancy agreement that electrical fittings are not permitted to be changed without prior permission(which will of course be denied).

tho there is some where in EAWR that states money is not an issue when it comes to safety, very right too.

 
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