no earth at all in flat...?

[hub123]

hi

have just returned from my daughter's partners flat which he bought about 4 years ago and which he is decorating to sell.... as he had asked for some help.

removed a twin 13 amp socket face plate from a surface mounted plastic pattress box to discover 4 red live and 4 black neutral in but only a single earth

(unconnected).the t and e is daisy chained on to a further 5 doubles where the earth is connected ....

I think the flat is maybe 1930's purpose built with concrete floors and ceiling I think at sometime someone has run single black and red singles through the existing old buried metal conduit with no earth ???

the CU is the old rewirable ,only 4 outlets (2 labeled lighting (maybe 5 amp))

1 for the cooker i think 1 for power...

i only had a few minutes there but i couldn't see any earth bar in the CU and only live and neutral tails coming in.

I am not a sparks so obviously i am getting him to get a qualified sparks to look at the whole installation but i wondered if he would have a case against whoever surveyed the place when he bought it.

Has anyone seen a place in a town like this which doesn't appear to have any earthing at all??

any comments greatly appreciated

 

[GreekIslandLover]

I doubt he has a case against the surveyor. I think that on the cheap survey, all they do is to say if the property is worth the price paid. If you want a more detailed survey, then you had to pay more, and even then I expect they have it sewn up so that the likelihood of anyone claiming against them is slim. Personally, although I can see why you are annoyed at the surveyor, I think it's probably worth letting it go.

Can you post some pictures please if possible?

Sounds like a rewire and new consumer unit job to me - sorry!

 

[hub123]

thanks for your input...

I had a nasty feeling its gonna be a complete rewire job...

unfortunately with concrete ceilings and floor it will have to be surface or complete subceilings nightmares

but have you ever seen anywhere 'earthless' before?

i've worked on houses and flat conversions for years and never seen anything like it !!!

 

[batty]

It maybe that the conduits are the earth although I have seen a job recently wired in twin and singles and none of metal boxes and conduits where earthed which is a worry.

Batty

 

[Evans Electric]

I think you will find that the earth is the metal conduit, on a socket its picked up by the two plate screws. Rewiring could be dead easy through the conduit. Lighting would be the same. If you take a light fitting down , keep the two screws , they are probably 2BA and not easily replaced.

Wall boxes would have 4BA screws and can be tapped out to M3.5

Deke

 

[hub123]

many thanks deke

i did wonder if that was the case (the metal conduit providing the earth) but of course where the original sockets have recently been replaced with plastic on pattress boxes this has now been lost ....?

 

[ian932]

If he is selling the house then maybe it

 

[sellers]

If you take a light fitting down , keep the two screws , they are probably 2BA and not easily replaced.

Good advice! Somehow when i come accross 2BA threads I always have just the right amount of screws knocking around.

 

[PC Electrics]

Sorry Hub, but I'm afraid it's 'caveat emptor', and the report would have been stuffed full of getout clauses.

This works for you now, of course. Just do and say nothing. Only react if a purchaser has an electrical survey (PIR) and requests further negotiation.

 

[a1]

HUB123, May I ask What area you are from? And is your Daughter's Partners flat in the same area?

As suggested by GreekIslandLover - Some pics of the installation would be good - If possible?!

Welcome to the forum by the way.

 

[hub123]

hi ....

i am from brighton and the flat in question isin littlehampton (45mins drive away so pics a bit tricky atm if I (or he) goes over there in the next coupla days will get some pics to post ....

many thanks for all helpful advice so far ...

am aware of the caveat emptor thing but not sure morally if i could recommend unloading something i think is dangerous on some other unsuspecting mug

I'm not a sparks but as the all the faceplates have been replaced with plastic there is no connection from the earth on the face plateto the conduit?

 

[merkin51]

hub123, did anything come about from this? Funnily enough I'm over in Worthing, and I have the EXACT same problem! We're also in 1930's (I believe) purpose built flats, proper concrete floor / ceiling jobby. We're on the ground floor, just 1 flat above us (it's not a "tall block", it's a block of 8 flats - 4 bottom and 4 up top).

I got a sparky mate round the other day just to fit some new light fightings for us, only for him to look on in astonishment at the state of our wiring, in particular the seemingly complete lack of earth. He came out with some sparky stuff which I'm afraid went competely over my head. The gist was that the whole place needs rewiring. Problem is, I have no idea how this is supposed to happen considering it's a concrete ceiling with another flat directly above us...

I'd be interested to see if anything came from your daughter's partner's flat, especially as we were hoping to sell this year :/

 

[Andy™]

hub123, did anything come about from this? Funnily enough I'm over in Worthing, and I have the EXACT same problem! We're also in 1930's (I believe) purpose built flats, proper concrete floor / ceiling jobby. We're on the ground floor, just 1 flat above us (it's not a "tall block", it's a block of 8 flats - 4 bottom and 4 up top). I got a sparky mate round the other day just to fit some new light fightings for us, only for him to look on in astonishment at the state of our wiring, in particular the seemingly complete lack of earth. He came out with some sparky stuff which I'm afraid went competely over my head. The gist was that the whole place needs rewiring. Problem is, I have no idea how this is supposed to happen considering it's a concrete ceiling with another flat directly above us...

I'd be interested to see if anything came from your daughter's partner's flat, especially as we were hoping to sell this year :/

lights can often be re-wired using existing conduit, providing everything is in the same place

otherwise, everything is done surface in trunking

 

[ianmacd]

[quote name='Andy

 

[Andy™]

bit OTT.... but im sure there are people who have done that

 

[merkin51]

Thanks guys. Any idea of a rough estimate for how much this might cost, for a 2 bedroom, 1 lounge, 1 kitchen, 1 bathroom flat? Or is that too hard to judge? It's totally down to whether it's worh doing before we sell or not.

 

[Lurch]

Price is all dependant on what state the wiring really is in and what access can be reused etc... Could be anywhere from 1k to 4k realistically.

 

[hub123]

ok folks.....

long overdue update ....

we had a well recommended local sparky round and on his advice we're completely rewiring using 40mm x 16mm trunking at ceiling height.

we're cut chases and chopping boxes in for lights and power and the sparks has kindly lent us diamond wall chaser complete with vac (still dirty but sooo much quicker and easier than stitch drilling and chopping by hand )

For lighting have ditched the existing ceiling lights they were all in strange places anyway lol and gone for wall spotlights about 150 mm down from ceiling.

The sparks has contacted the managing agents about running a new supply in as the tails are too small and only earth is through the conduit but they are dragging their heels at the moment.

When we eventually finish he will hook up the new board and do the new supply to the flat.

If my daughter's partner decides to sell after renting til the market goes up a bit we can cover the trunking with coving throughout and maybe swap the cheapo plastic faceplates for metal flat plates and hopefully all the effort wil be worthwhile.

thnx to everyone for their advice and I hope to post a successful conlusion sometime

 

[ianmacd]

Coving covers a multiple of sins .

 

[Andy™]

yes, it covers all the cables held in place by a bent nail